Captain America: The Winter Soldier

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Mr Mole
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby Mr Mole » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:04 am

saint_matthew wrote:The strangest issue I had with special effects in man of steel was the uncanny valley effect of Zod's face.... The strange part being is that Zod's face wasn't CGI.... Yet I kept on having the disconcerting feeling that I was looking at a CGI animation that wasn't quite right & so I kept on getting that uncanny valley feeling.... It was really creepy.

I had the exact same feeling... :shock:

As for the acting and effects, by "fine" I mean "neither exceptionally good nor exceptionally bad." Pretty run-of-the-mill on those counts. There was plenty of room for improvement, but none of those details did much to help or hurt the movie.

On the topic of Sam Wilson/The Falcon... It never even occurred to me, while watching the movie, that anyone would think of him as some sort of subservient "sidekick" to Cap. He wasn't the main character and didn't get as much camera time as Black Widow, but he was entirely his own man. If anything, he seemed to inspire Cap to be a better Cap. I thought he had a solid introduction into the movie franchise (far better than Hawkeye's appearances to date) and I look forward to seeing more of him in the future.

Overall, I like The Winter Soldier at least as much as I liked The First Avenger... Which is very rare in a sequel... And I'd rate it very close to the first Iron Man movie as the best of the current run of Marvel movies (YMMV, of course).
Last edited by Mr Mole on Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby Ares » Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:08 am

I also understand where people are coming from with the Captain America vs Man of Steel comparisons.

Man of Steel was a very uneven movie for me. I thought the effects were nice enough, it was nice to have Superman engaged in an actual fight scene, I liked that Lois Lane was this proactive reporter that was able to figure out Superman's secret ID from the get go, I liked Pa Kent's talk with Clark about how, whatever man he decides to be, he's going to change the world and the philosophical take on Krypton was interesting, this notion of freedom of choice versus doing what the world expects of you. Even Zod was actually understandable as a villain, as he was just doing what his people had literally bred him to do, and it showcases the flaws in the Kryptonian way of doing things.

At the same time, they sort of betray the spirit of that debate by having Clark spend the movie doing what both of his dads tell him to do. Pa Kent teaches him to be so afraid of the world that he'll die in a beautifully shot but mind-numbingly stupid fashion, Jor-El talks about the freedom of choice, but keeps telling Clark what he should do with his life. Superman technically is responsible for personally rescuing more people before he puts on the costume, rather than after. He has the worst kept secret identity in the history of secret identities. And then there's the well known destruction, the fight scenes that overstayed their welcome and were hard to follow and the killing, followed by him having light comedy with a general.

And maybe it was just me, but the idea that Clark would not stand up to a bully, but secretly destroy the guy's truck was just not something I want to think about from a Superman character. It's funny the first time you watch it, but then you realize this guy just lost his livelyhood, his job, and any number of other potential problems. I don't want a Superman that engages in petty revenge that could potentially leave a man homeless and jobless. The guy was a jerk, but for all we know he's normally an okay guy who just had too much to drink, and who has issues about big jock types trying to push him around because of his height. I'm not saying that excuses sexual harassment or picking a fight, but the punishment he received did not fit his relatively minor crime.

Likewise, the scene where Clark just flat out steals a guys clothes didn't ring right to me. When David Banner would find himself in a similar situation after a Hulk out and need to swipe some clothes, he'd do things like leave some cash on the clothes line or otherwise make restitution, because he was not going to let an unfortunate situation compromise his principals. It makes even less sense for Clark, who is in no danger of hypothermia and could easily use his powers to sneak around.

A pet peeve of mine was also that Zod was terraforming Earth to make it more like Krypton, commenting "What, you want us to spend months of pain adapting to Earth's environment like you did?" Let me think about that for a second Zod. Do I want to be uncomfortable for a couple of months where my body will adapt to an environment, the end result being that I'm a physical god that can fly around and lift thousands of tons? For a race of supertough warriors, this seems like a really easy question.

Man of Steel us this morally conflicted Superman who never really lives up to the whole notion of 'freedom of choice'. He spends the movie moping about his lot in life, feeling conflicted about his place and the world, being very dark and broody when he has to live with the curse of being raised by two parents that loved him and having godlike power. He should have exercised that whole notion of choice by saving his dad's life, consequences be damned. He should have smiled a lot more. He should have been shown using his X-Ray vision to make sure a building was empty before he punched Zod into it, used his heat vision to destroy debris as it's falling to the ground, should have actually been flying around as Superman saving people other than Lois Lane.

Captain America was someone with much more legitimate reasons to mope and be angsty, but who instead focuses on doing the right thing. He has a clear moral center and he makes every effort not to compromise his principals. Another reviewer pointed out that people are constantly telling Cap that he lives in a world of grey, and he needs to quit being so simplistic in his world view. Instead, Captain America's power is that he can simplify things. He takes the grey and divides it up into black and white, showing people what needs to be done, no matter how hard it might be. He cuts through the BS and finds the right path and walks it, and is willing to bear whatever consequences that follow. When asked if he wants to go over seas and kill Nazis, he states with perfect sincerity that "I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from." When facing an alien invasion that threatens the world, his first concern is with minimizing civilian casualties by containing the battle. When it comes time to overthrow SHIELD, he trusts in the integrity of the true SHIELD agents to stand with him against a threat to the world and do the right thing. He finds the right path and places his faith in better nature of normal people, and they rise to the challenge because of that faith.

Captain America is genuinely heroic, old school superhero, and they make him awesome. If they ever make a Power of Shazam movie, I'd want them to use Steve as a model for Captain Marvel, just with a bit more Spidey-style humor.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby badpenny » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:05 am

I think a lot of the comments about Man of Steel miss one key point: the movie is his origin story. Isn't he allowed to make mistakes? He has emotions--so he wrecks the guy's truck. I'm willing to go along with that and project him into the future where he looks back at that and winces. Or how he was overwhelmed with so much going on simultaneously that he could only concentrate on stopping the bad guys. Maybe as the more fully formed Superman he allows any deaths during that (or any battle) to fall on his conscience.

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby The_Watchman » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:28 am

badpenny wrote:I think a lot of the comments about Man of Steel miss one key point: the movie is his origin story. Isn't he allowed to make mistakes? He has emotions--so he wrecks the guy's truck. I'm willing to go along with that and project him into the future where he looks back at that and winces. Or how he was overwhelmed with so much going on simultaneously that he could only concentrate on stopping the bad guys. Maybe as the more fully formed Superman he allows any deaths during that (or any battle) to fall on his conscience.


Personally, it's not that the character is inconsistent to the narrative within Man of Steel (though all that Hope stuff is a bold-faced lie), it's that the crew chose a story where those things happened. By the time he wrecks the truck, Clark has already gone through everything but finding out about Krypton and getting his suit. I hate the idea that Clark has to know anything about Krypton to be Superman (other than "I am not from Earth"). Clark is Superman because his human parents instilled the kind of values that Krypton had long abandoned. I like the "first child created from an act of love in millenia" aspect but it's just gilding the lily. The fact is, MoS's Kal-El wasn't very heroic in the first film and that's always going to be there in the background. Not unlike how Amazing Spider-man permanently tainted that version of Peter Parker. The issues I and I think many others have are deliberate choices made by the film-maker. If you want to show Clark has emotions, show him fantasize about using his powers for petty revenge but not act on it. I mean, hell, I've had people be jerks to me and not given in to petty revenge and I'm damn sure not as morally upstanding as Superman. Of course this is all conjecture until MoS 2 comes out, but I have a hard time imagining a way to make up for all the failings of that origin story. Pa Kent isn't a staunch voice of morality. Superman is aggressive and destructive first and foremost. I mean take the bit with the drone at the end. Superman is faster than a drone could possibly track and there's no indication that he leaves some special signature they could follow...so why wreck the drone? Why not just keep disappearing into Metropolis and just confront the general with "Look, you won't find me this way but I'll always be there when you need me. Stop wasting your time."

I think the issues with Man of Steel go back to the first Superman movie. Much like the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies (relating to Batman '66), Man of Steel was based on the Reeve Superman movies, not the comics. So Clark needs Space Dad to sort everything out and Kal-El was sent for some higher purpose rather than just to save his life. One of many reasons I just love Byrne's Man of Steel miniseries as a Superman origin. It's not some grand reason why Kal-El was saved, it's that he had the parents who actually cared enough to save him. It's strongly implied that Jor-El is a good man that rebels against the Kryptonian ideal entirely because he was watching Earth and saw the good of Mankind.

Yes, a lot of the criticisms against Man of Steel seem like armchair quarterbacking if they're directed at the character. In the heat of the moment with only seconds to act, maybe that's the decision we'd make. But at a meta-level, the screenwriters had all the time they needed to consider the decisions Kal would make and the situations he'd be placed in. They could have easily had Kal be stronger with his powers than Zod but nowhere near as ruthless and lacking Zod's combat training so Kal is burning himself out taking hits so others don't and not making attacks that would endanger innocents. Have the fight end with Kal, exhausted on the ground while Zod is about to vaporize that family and if you just have to have Kal learn that killing is wrong through experience, have Kal do a desperate, last-of-his-energy attack that kills Zod. But that's not the movie we got.
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby saint_matthew » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:35 pm

Mr Mole wrote:
saint_matthew wrote:The strangest issue I had with special effects in man of steel was the uncanny valley effect of Zod's face.... The strange part being is that Zod's face wasn't CGI.... Yet I kept on having the disconcerting feeling that I was looking at a CGI animation that wasn't quite right & so I kept on getting that uncanny valley feeling.... It was really creepy.

I had the exact same feeling... :shock:


Oh thank god, it wasn't just me.

Mr Mole wrote:On the topic of Sam Wilson/The Falcon... It never even occurred to me, while watching the movie, that anyone would think of him as some sort of subservient "sidekick" to Cap. He wasn't the main character and didn't get as much camera time as Black Widow, but he was entirely his own man. If anything, he seemed to inspire Cap to be a better Cap. I thought he had a solid introduction into the movie franchise (far better than Hawkeye's appearances to date) and I look forward to seeing more of him in the future.


Funny thing is, I legitimately heard people complain about racism on the basis of The Falcons addition to the universe because "Marvel can't stand a black man with powers, so they picked one that's subservient to an Aryan Superman in the comics." At which point I cracked up laughing & spent the rest of the weeks deriding this guy on youtube whenever he would post shit about how the Black Panther should be in the Avengers instead.

Black Panther = Ultimate Mary Sue
Flacon = Ultimate Awesome

Mr Mole wrote:Overall, I like The Winter Soldier at least as much as I liked The First Avenger... Which is very rare in a sequel... And I'd rate it very close to the first Iron Man movie as the best of the current run of Marvel movies (YMMV, of course).


I still say I can improve it by changing its name to "Patriot Act: The Movie." An frankly that's the ONLY place I think I could improve it.
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby saint_matthew » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:37 pm

Ares wrote:Man of Steel was a very uneven movie for me. I thought the effects were nice enough, it was nice to have Superman engaged in an actual fight scene, I liked that Lois Lane was this proactive reporter that was able to figure out Superman's secret ID from the get go, I liked Pa Kent's talk with Clark about how, whatever man he decides to be, he's going to change the world and the philosophical take on Krypton was interesting, this notion of freedom of choice versus doing what the world expects of you. Even Zod was actually understandable as a villain, as he was just doing what his people had literally bred him to do, and it showcases the flaws in the Kryptonian way of doing things.


The only thing that would have improved any of those aspects is if they had done any of them well. :lol:

Ares wrote:Captain America is genuinely heroic, old school superhero, and they make him awesome. If they ever make a Power of Shazam movie, I'd want them to use Steve as a model for Captain Marvel, just with a bit more Spidey-style humor.


YES. A MILLION TIMES YES!
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby The_Watchman » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:16 pm

saint_matthew wrote:
Ares wrote:Captain America is genuinely heroic, old school superhero, and they make him awesome. If they ever make a Power of Shazam movie, I'd want them to use Steve as a model for Captain Marvel, just with a bit more Spidey-style humor.


YES. A MILLION TIMES YES!


I don't get it. When was Steve a snarky teenage thief? *ducks and runs*
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby Mr Mole » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:10 pm

The_Watchman wrote:I don't get it. When was Steve a snarky teenage thief? *ducks and runs*

...i have no response to that... :roll:

[NOTE: Okay, so I do have a response or forty, but they all involve much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the current state of DC comics, and I don't wanna go there. Besides, you're mistaking this new "Shazam" doppelganger for "Captain Marvel." :wink: ]

[NOTE #2: ...and now I feel kinda out of place without a pony avatar... they seem to be getting popular around here... now i gotta come up with a pony avatar that fits my "mr mole" handle... how's that gonna work...? :shock: ]

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby The_Watchman » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:35 am

Mr Mole wrote:[NOTE #2: ...and now I feel kinda out of place without a pony avatar... they seem to be getting popular around here... now i gotta come up with a pony avatar that fits my "mr mole" handle... how's that gonna work...? :shock: ]


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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby saint_matthew » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:19 am

The_Watchman wrote:I don't get it. When was Steve a snarky teenage thief? *ducks and runs*


*Throws a copy of the Hawkman Omnibus at Watchman, accidently hits Mr Mole*

You better run. :twisted:

Um, sorry about that Mr Mole, darn book just flew out of my hands :lol:
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby Mr Mole » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:38 am

The_Watchman wrote:The Brony community is a strange place...

That's... disturbing... :shock:

...So I must use it as my new avatar! Thanks, Watchman! :mrgreen:

saint_matthew wrote:Um, sorry about that Mr Mole, darn book just flew out of my hands :lol:

I just spent the last hour or two dealing with my soon-to-be-ex-wife, so getting hit by a stray book is actually an improvement. :|

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby The_Watchman » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:00 am

Courtesy of Dorkly

"Captain America 3: I'm a Better Superman Than Henry Cavill's City-Wrecking Saiyan"
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby Mr Mole » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:34 am

The_Watchman wrote:Courtesy of Dorkly

"Captain America 3: I'm a Better Superman Than Henry Cavill's City-Wrecking Saiyan"

It was crude, but pretty accurate. :|

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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby Thakowsaizmu » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:54 am

The_Watchman wrote:Courtesy of Dorkly

"Captain America 3: I'm a Better Superman Than Henry Cavill's City-Wrecking Saiyan"

Hahahahaha!
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Postby Goldar » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:41 am

Mr Mole wrote: I just spent the last hour or two dealing with my soon-to-be-ex-wife, so getting hit by a stray book is actually an improvement. :|


The soon-to-be ex "Mrs Mole"? Oh no! Don't let her steal your new pony avatar!

I just saw Cap the Winter Soldier and I enjoyed it. Did it have flaws? Why yes, of course, as do all movies, superhero movies especially. Was it the comic version of Cap, BW, Batroc, Falcon or WS? No, of course not. But, I still enjoyed it for what it was, and overall, I thought it was much better than most! :D

I did like WS' bionic arm. It was very "realistic" and consistent throughout the movie. I enjoyed the one-arm neck death grip that both WS and Cap used on each other! Very good fight scenes! And this movie demonstrated and utilized Cap's strength level very well.

The 2 hidden ending scenes were very intriguing.....and I Hope they are carried over completely in the next sequel. I can't wait......


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