Justice League: War

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby saint_matthew » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:42 am

Charles Phipps wrote:Sorry. I don't agree and I think a lot of your statements about the island are not true.


Feel free to ask for a citation for any of the above claims & I'll do my best to cite a source.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Voltron64 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:53 pm

The thing is the Amazons think life's problems are because of men, when really it's due to humans.

(I also would like to state my belief that Straw Feminists and misandrists are little more than schoolyard bullies, who if they weren't ragging on a guy for being a chauvanist pig, they'd be forcing him to hand over his lunch money.)
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:44 pm

saint_matthew wrote:
Charles Phipps wrote:Sorry. I don't agree and I think a lot of your statements about the island are not true.


Feel free to ask for a citation for any of the above claims & I'll do my best to cite a source.


I could also show Superman lusting after his cousin but that doesn't mean anything to the character.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:45 pm

Voltron64 wrote:The thing is the Amazons think life's problems are because of men, when really it's due to humans.


That's kind of the animated series straw manning them.

The Amazons were all about "Man's world sucks" but, really, think about it 3000 years ago and you'll see why they're skeptical.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Voltron64 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:01 pm

EDIT: Whoops, wrong thread.
Last edited by Voltron64 on Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby saint_matthew » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:52 pm

Charles Phipps wrote:
saint_matthew wrote:
Charles Phipps wrote:Sorry. I don't agree and I think a lot of your statements about the island are not true.


Feel free to ask for a citation for any of the above claims & I'll do my best to cite a source.


I could also show Superman lusting after his cousin but that doesn't mean anything to the character.


Actually it would exactly show something if the conversation was "has Superman ever lusted for his cousin" & the answer would then be "yes, and heres a citation for that."

Now not to presume your intention Charles, but as a general rule when someone disagrees with a statement & then the person you have disagreed with offers to cite sources for anything he's said & instead of asking for a citation you go off on a tangent that could be summed up as "citations of canonical data from the primary source aren't as important as what I believe the character should be," that's a giant announcement that states "I disagree, but I'd hoped that my disagreement alone would have been enough to discourage you from continuing that line of thought." :D

Its at this point that you no longer having a conversation, you now have an argument between data & belief, so heres how this works: I have stated a list of negative traits about Paradise Island based on the canon as it appears in the comic books, mainly from crisis to crisis.... You think I am wrong on some of the salient points I've made, so at this point you can either request a citation or explanation that would justify my stance, or try to refute or rebut my salient points using salient points of your own (based on the actual canon of the thing we are discussing).

If we choose not to do this, the primary function of a forum board ceases to exist & the whole shebang falls on its arse, so lets try this again. :D

Charles Phipps wrote:Sorry. I don't agree and I think a lot of your statements about the island are not true.


Feel free to ask for a citation for any of the above claims & I'll do my best to cite a source. :wink:

Edit: Darn spulling errars
Last edited by saint_matthew on Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:05 pm

Sorry, allow me to illustrate my feelings on the subject. "Amazons Attack" and the NuDCU amongst other sources have created an Amazon culture which is not based on peace but one based on deception, lies, and violence with a strawmanning of feminism. I am not disputing your claims, simply they are awful depictions of the Amazons and not "My" vision of Themyscira.

Same as Superman in the Man of Steel is not my Kal-El.

So don't feel dismissed, I just am saying that I find the "evil" Amazons to be eyerollingly bad cariactures and something I have no wish to read about and do not reflect Wonder Woman. Which is someone who grew up in a Utopian society and is trying to bring its values to the world.

It was a society created by the oddball lie detector inventor but it was a fun society nevertheless (or maybe because of it, depending on your attitude).

:mrgreen:

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Ares » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:48 am

I feel Wonder Woman has mostly been a case of missed opportunities for DC. I've heard a lot of praise about the current series making the character interesting, but from everything I've seen, it's less that they've made Diana or the Amazons interesting and more that they have created this trippy Neil Gaiman style world that bears so little a resemblance to Wonder Woman that if you replaced the images of Diana with an original female protagonist, it wouldn't change anything. Hell, if anything, it'd fit better.

The Amazons, to my mind, should have been this example of Athenian ideals that have evolved over time in a society isolated from the rest of the world. With no worry about invasion, plenty of land and resources for themselves, they devote themselves to the arts, sciences, athleticism and combat. They'd develop their own art forms, a unique technology that was equal parts magic and science, and forms of fighting and strategy based off of centuries of refinement. With a society as isolated and cut off as they became, they had to develop a philosophy of peace, understanding and such that emphasized bonds, and a form of friendly competition. On perceived paradox of Amazon culture is that they're dedicated to peace, but are masters of war. What should come through then is that dislike senseless violence, but enjoy competition, in true Athenian fashion. They'd see nothing inherently wrong with two people sparring to the best of their ability, or wanting to master combat thoroughly.

In a sense, they'd be this sort of combo of Athens and a Shao-Lin monastery floating out on their own.

Now, ideally what should happen is that while the Amazons are portrayed as a positive culture, they aren't a perfect one. While trained diplomats and having a philosophy of love and understanding, they have several issues that stem from their isolation. They have a mild sense of moral superiority when it comes to men, stemming from what they perceive as injustices perpetrated against them centuries ago. They're quick to point out the imperfections of the world, and lay the blame at the feet of what they consider a patriarchal society. They don't realize that, as an isolated culture that was basically given an island with everything they need, they have no moral high ground over the societies that have had to deal with illness, disease, lack of resources, and evil individuals. In many ways, they're pampered and have a sense of entitlement because they've been telling each other how much better they are than everyone else.

The goal with a Wonder Woman character would be with Diana coming into the world and having her views challenged. She comes to the world with the opinions gained through centuries of isolationism, and initially is finds plenty of things to justify Amazon beliefs. It allows an outside perspective on things we take for granted. But then she sees things that make her question her own judgement and values, reads about the actions of people in the past, see how society has changed, be inspired by the courage and thoughts of men and women, etc.

Ideally, Diana would see that while the human world is flawed, it has a lot to offer, and that while Paradise Island has many advantages over the outside world, it isn't perfect either. Having her adapt her beliefs, trying to marry them together and enact positive change on both societies, would make for an interesting ongoing story. It avoids the preachy 'Men are evil and Amazons are awesome' fallacy of some of the earlier books, but it also avoids the crazy "Amazons are evil manhating straw feminists" of some of the more recent stuff. It makes things complex, interesting and human.

On a similar note, I'd probably have the Olympians of the DCU be a slightly more idealized / Marvel Asgard style of gods, as opposed to either the jerkass gods of the Post Crisis universe, or the absolutely Lovecraftian style gods of the NU-52. It's simple enough to use the original myths as guidelines but not have everything be absolutely true, because these are myths handed down from people who didn't get a firsthand experience of what was going on up there. Zeus and Hera could have been a lot more benevolent, and there's no reason to not have Heracles be a noble individual. Let the gods have some of the dignity the Romans gave them.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Ares » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:49 am

And while I'm at it, my general thoughts on Wonder Woman's abilities, taken from a post I made on another forum. Because the hell with it, I'm on a roll here.

***

So. Wonder Woman. THE iconic heroine, I think Diana’s suffered since the original Crisis with regards to her powers and standing in the DCU. Since she wasn’t quite on Superman/Captain Marvel’s power level Pre-Crisis, DC altered her origin and powers to try and make her their most powerful heroine, but turned her into some weird combination of Sleeping Beauty and the Marvel Family. That it was exactly 6 gods that gave her the powers, the overlap with Cap and Mary’s powersets (sometimes even the same patrons), to Diana eventually gaining the power to call lightning down from the sky, just made it worse.

However, despite the power upgrade, Diana never was really on the same level as Superman. Her combination of physical might and skill should have let her beat him handily, but she was always the underdog when they fought, and her powers wound up making her just another generic flying brick that occasionally kicked things. I think the idea of making Diana’s abilities either gifts from the gods or part of some divine heritage was a mistake. I like characters who earned their powers through hard work (Batman), through a test (Iron Fist), or through self-worth (Captain Marvel). As such, that would be my starting point with Diana.

I’d go back to the Golden Age take on Wonder Woman, where the Amazons are this idealized Athenian culture, combining philosophical learning with a mastery of combat, believing in striving for excellence in both mind and body, embracing a spirit of competition but hating pointless warfare. I’d also bring back those giant jousting kangaroos they had Pre-Crisis, because I think those are just kind of insane but awesome stuff that makes comics fun. They developed their own brand of magic-based technology, and they are among the most skilled and powerful warriors of existence, who gained their abilities through intensive training. However, there needs to be some reason why the Amazons can achieve such high level of power, while guys like Batman and Karate Kid, who arguably train just as hard, cannot.

My take would be to give a nod to Diana’s Post-Crisis origins, and draw on things such as the Eternals and martial arts films for inspiration. Each of the main Olympian gods would havea temple dedicated to them on Paradise Island, each of which would have philosophies and training methodologies that allow the person training there to form a link to the various mystical aspects the god represents. The more you train, the more you harmonize with those mystical aspects, the more powerful you become. Training at the Temple of Heracles would grant great strength, the Temple of Hermes great speed, the Temple of Artemis enhanced senses and skill at tracking/archery, etc. Most Amazons receive general training from each temple and dedicate themselves to a single temple, with each temple having two or three masters of that temple’s ways. Special Amazons like Hippolyta and Artemis might have mastered the ways of several temples, while Diana is the only Amazon ever to have mastered them all. As I’d stick with the classic Galatea style ‘born from clay’ origin, Diana’s abilities would be gained solely through her own hard work and determination, letting her earn her powers and her right to be ambassador to Man’s World.

Now, this training can only make one so powerful. Diana would not have the raw physical power of someone like Superman, nor the speed of the Flash. However, she would be hands down the best fighter in the League. Even deprived of her powers, she’d still be able to pull 5/10 against Batman or Captain America hand to hand, and would be their superiors in most forms of melee weapons. She would also be the best in the League at battlefield strategy, combat tactics, and so on. Superman would be the one who knows what the League’s objectives should be, and Batman is the best at seeing them accomplished through stealth and deception, but Diana is the best at achieving those victories through battlefield planning and tactics.

She also wouldn’t be able to fly, but would be able to glide like she could Pre-Crisis, giving her a kind of wuxia style leaping ability. She’d basically have Thing-level strength/toughness, Quicksilver-ish speed, Spider-Man-like agility, Hulk-ish leaping, wire-fu like gliding, and Captain America style fighting skills. She’d have an incredibly dynamic, acrobatic and impressive fighting style, one that would let her be able to hold her own evenly against guys like Superman and Captain Marvel.

Equipment wise, I’d bring back the Invisible Jet, going with the notion that it was an example of Amazonian magi-tech. A very durable, completely silent, VTOL capable aircraft with mild shape-changing abilities and some weapon systems, invisible to all but Diana and those she wishes to seeit. Her tiara would be the device that lets her mentally control her plane, and would no longer have any use as a weapon.

Her lasso would be fairly basic. It’s indestructible, anyone touching it must tell the truth, and those of average or weak wills are compelled to answer any question she asks them, while strong willed beings can resist the compulsion, but if they speak must speak the truth. While Diana is touching the lasso, she is aware if anyone tells a lie in her presence. It can also be used to dispel illusions, reveals illusions to her, and can free people from mind control. It is also an effective weapon, given it’s a length of indestructible metallic chord. It can be whipped around at mach speeds to slice through most matter, it can be used to snare at a distance, to restrain, etc. It gives her a nice range in combat, and can let her take out foes without seriously injuring them.

Her bracelets are likewise indestructible, and while Diana is bulletproof, she does the bullets and bracelets bit to redirect gunfire either to her advantage, or to simply make sure the bullets don’t harm any nearby civilians. They can deflect, reflect and redirect most energy attacks and some physical attacks (such s bullets), and when she crosses them before her, they will basically deflect any large Area of Effect attacks that her bracelets normally would not be able to stop.

The one new addition I’d give to Diana would be an item called the Proteus Scepter. In it’s basic form, it’d resemble the hilt of a sword with two pommel-like spheres on either end, and be worn on her hip opposite her lasso. The Scepter would be able to alter it’s shape to some degree, with the handle being able to extend to be the length of a two-handed sword, or to a bo staff. The spheres on either end can turn into blades, allowing Diana to have a one-handed sword, a two-handed sword, a spear or a double-bladed spear. She could also separate the Scepter in the middle, gaining two one-handed swords, or even two spears. This gives her a unique, multi-purpose weapon that allows her some flexibility in combat, and again make her fighting style more dynamic. I could even see her combining her lasso and the scepter to pull off some Meteror Hammer style stunts, or put a blade on the end and make it even more dangerous.

Overall, that’d be my ‘fix’ of Wonder Woman’s powers. High mid-tier in terms of physical abilities, but with the skill and gear to be able to fight top tiers on an even level and NOT be the underdog in those fights.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby saint_matthew » Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:57 am

Ares wrote:I feel Wonder Woman has mostly been a case of missed opportunities for DC. I've heard a lot of praise about the current series making the character interesting, but from everything I've seen, it's less that they've made Diana or the Amazons interesting and more that they have created this trippy Neil Gaiman style world that bears so little a resemblance to Wonder Woman that if you replaced the images of Diana with an original female protagonist, it wouldn't change anything. Hell, if anything, it'd fit better.


I know what you mean.... It feels less like anyone gives a shit about the actual NU52 Wonder Woman book & more like those people who use to gush about Sandman, as they desired to appear cool, alternative & deep, when what they meant was "boy this book is convoluted, trippy & it must be good because I don't understand what's going on half the time."

Ares wrote:The goal with a Wonder Woman character would be with Diana coming into the world and having her views challenged. She comes to the world with the opinions gained through centuries of isolationism, and initially is finds plenty of things to justify Amazon beliefs. It allows an outside perspective on things we take for granted. But then she sees things that make her question her own judgement and values, reads about the actions of people in the past, see how society has changed, be inspired by the courage and thoughts of men and women, etc.


Yes, but we know that was never going to happen, because as a society we aren't ready for that story. As progressive as we pretend to be, society still isn't at the point where we are ready for "women as an aggregate group are deeply flawed" as a concept. We've been fine with stating "men as an aggregate group are deeply flawed" for centuries, to the point we sometimes overlook all the good men have done, to the point where we still have people who legitimately believe that if women were in charge there would be no war & that all women are being kept down by some evil male patriarchy.

Unfortunately fiction is a mirror of what we actually believe & in many ways I think the failure of wonder woman as an intellectual property is a sign of the failure of societies gender narrative, especially the left-over regressive teachings of old school feminism, we haven't quite grown out of yet. In many ways WW up until the reboot always reminded me of the generational everyday racism of some Americans (or even Europeans or Australians, none of you get off the hook that easily). Oh sure the world is moving on & you think "nah that past racism is long dead & then you'll have a casual comment made by a parent or grand parent that goes to show that the racism you thought was dead, still very much colours there views: in many ways, Wonder Womans print history from Crisis to Crisis was that put onto paper.

A great example of how subtle it at times was not was a story that has since been put into trade: It took place in that short period where Diana retired as Wonder Woman & wore a blue & black cycle outfit costume, complete with terrible jacket. In it she fights a guy, who is the stereotypical male thug douchebag. He had muscles on his muscles, doppy facial hair, ripped denim (this was the 80s after all) & chains... An this guy was empowered by the white wizard (a guy whose magic comes from being white).... An you know what this paragon of male douche-baggery was named?

The Chauvinist.

I kid you not, its not exactly subtle, is it: I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. An according to sales data that was released last year by amazon its one of the top 5 best selling wonder woman trades on amazon, ever (sorry guys, I just tried to find the data again, but can't seem to find it. If anyone else finds it please give me a shout).

So yeah, I agreewith you Ares, heres hoping the next reboot of Diana is better than what we've had in the past, because there is no reason we CAN'T have a good WW series, if we just dropped the regressive elements that have always held the title back.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Goldar » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:05 pm

Ares wrote:And while I'm at it, my general thoughts on Wonder Woman's abilities, taken from a post I made on another forum. Because the hell with it, I'm on a roll here.

***

So. Wonder Woman. THE iconic heroine, I think Diana’s suffered since the original Crisis with regards to her powers and standing in the DCU. Since she wasn’t quite on Superman/Captain Marvel’s power level Pre-Crisis, DC altered her origin and powers to try and make her their most powerful heroine,

However, despite the power upgrade, Diana never was really on the same level as Superman.

She also wouldn’t be able to fly, but would be able to glide like she could Pre-Crisis, giving her a kind of wuxia style leaping ability. She’d basically have Thing-level strength/toughness, Quicksilver-ish speed, Spider-Man-like agility, Hulk-ish leaping, wire-fu like gliding, and Captain America style fighting skills. She’d have an incredibly dynamic, acrobatic and impressive fighting style, one that would let her be able to hold her own evenly against guys like Superman and Captain Marvel.

Equipment wise, I’d bring back the Invisible Jet, going with the notion that it was an example of Amazonian magi-tech.

Her lasso would be fairly basic. It’s indestructible, anyone touching it must tell the truth, and those of average or weak wills are compelled to answer any question she asks them, while strong willed beings can resist the compulsion, but if they speak must speak the truth.

Her bracelets are likewise indestructible, and while Diana is bulletproof, she does the bullets and bracelets bit to redirect gunfire either to her advantage, or to simply make sure the bullets don’t harm any nearby civilians. They can deflect, reflect and redirect most energy attacks and some physical attacks (such s bullets), and when she crosses them before her, they will basically deflect any large Area of Effect attacks that her bracelets normally would not be able to stop.


Ares, a very interesting "fix" if you will on WW! I like your ideas as another version of WW, maybe of an alternate world. The jet, tiara, bracelets and lasso would certainly fit with my love of the pre-crisis WW and her powers and abilities. I would love to see you stat-up Diana as you list her above with the Marvel heroes attributes. It would be interesting to see how powerful she would be in numerical form.

I really don't like the "New" DC direction of WW, and actually prefer the Pre-Crisis version. True, WW was not exactly as strong as Superman (or Cap Marvel, one could argue), but she could go up against him and hold her own, if not win against him. I always saw her as the most powerful (strongest) heroine, up to maybe 1980-85, where Supergirl seemed to soar ahead of Diana to some degree, although even Kara was not as strong as Superman.

Overall, I see Diana as being stronger than Mary Marvel, Power Girl (woman?) and Supergirl in general, and Kara seemed way to strong in those years prior to her death. I think a few pegs below Superman is ideal for Diana, because besides being a super-Amazon, dedicated to the temples and her gods/goddesses, and blessed by numerous gods/goddesses, Diana is just extremely strong. She also exercises tremendously through her missions and fighting evil, as well as training against other heroes. I think MM should be next closest, about 2 lower than WW due to her blessings of the gods, and Power Girl and Supergirl a few lower than Mary.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby The_Watchman » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:28 pm

Goldar wrote:Overall, I see Diana as being stronger than Mary Marvel, Power Girl (woman?) and Supergirl in general, and Kara seemed way to strong in those years prior to her death. I think a few pegs below Superman is ideal for Diana, because besides being a super-Amazon, dedicated to the temples and her gods/goddesses, and blessed by numerous gods/goddesses, Diana is just extremely strong. She also exercises tremendously through her missions and fighting evil, as well as training against other heroes. I think MM should be next closest, about 2 lower than WW due to her blessings of the gods, and Power Girl and Supergirl a few lower than Mary.


I've always viewed J'onn as being equal to Superman but deliberately holding back. He did mop the floor with Ultraman, though that did involve him using powers other than strength (though I'd argue he also physically overpowered Ultraman as well). I'd say Power Girl is probably just below Superman since she's a full grown Kryptonian (but didn't develop her powers as slowly as Clark and therefore doesn't quite have the muscle tone he developed from life on the farm). Wonder Woman is comfortably in the middle with Supergirl and Mary about equal (but Kara's more determined and willing to use her full strength). I think Diana would win a fight with Kara or Mary without much issue. Logically, Diana should be a physical match for Superman thanks to her entirely magic-based powers but excluding that, I think she's less strong but more skilled. At Superman's generally portrayed post-crisis power level, it would be close but he'd probably be just a bit too strong for her to match. Pre-crisis, well, nobody matches Superman pre-crisis.

But yeah, Ares write up is fantastic and I would love to see that adopted by DC.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Cinder » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:24 pm

saint_matthew wrote:I know what you mean.... It feels less like anyone gives a shit about the actual NU52 Wonder Woman book & more like those people who use to gush about Sandman, as they desired to appear cool, alternative & deep, when what they meant was "boy this book is convoluted, trippy & it must be good because I don't understand what's going on half the time."


This. Yes. It is so common to pop culture in general, IMHO.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Ares » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:54 pm

Goldar wrote:Ares, a very interesting "fix" if you will on WW! I like your ideas as another version of WW, maybe of an alternate world. The jet, tiara, bracelets and lasso would certainly fit with my love of the pre-crisis WW and her powers and abilities. I would love to see you stat-up Diana as you list her above with the Marvel heroes attributes. It would be interesting to see how powerful she would be in numerical form.


The_Watchman wrote:But yeah, Ares write up is fantastic and I would love to see that adopted by DC.


Glad you both liked this particular take on Wonder Woman. I figure it's a good way for her to have her own sort of unique ability set without coming off as a second rate Mary Marvel and such. Watching Diana fight should be an amazing spectacle of martial skill, weapon use, agility and speed. As far as I'm concerned, her strength is one of her least important attributes, though still and important one. In my own scale, Diana is actually weaker than Supergirl, Power Girl and Mary Marvel, because her strength is derived from her Amazonian training and not any divine heritage. I place the three of them in the same category as Superman and Captain Marvel, while I place Diana a bit further down. But despite that, Diana would be an even match for any of those listed because she isn't about pure strength, because when it comes to a fight she's about martial skill and clever tactics, not raw power.

It'd be something like whenever Spider-Man fights guys like Shang Chi or Captain America. Technically, Peter is several times stronger and tougher than they are, as well as faster. But they're much, much better fighters than he is, and can often fight him to a stalemate.

Diana would be the world's foremost heroine not by virtue of her powers, but by virtue of her personality. The way Superman should be considered the hero of his world due to who he is, not because of how many tons he can lift.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Ares » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:59 pm

And since we're talking strength rankings now, here's a system I came up with for various fictional characters. This system will include rankings for both normal humans and augmented superhumans.

One thing to note about this system is that Lifting Strength and Comparative Strength scale differently. A Class 100 character will be able to lift much more than a Class 80 character, but a Class 80 character will still be able to do significant damage to a Class 100 character punch wise. Likewise, if a Class 100 person grappled with a Class 90 person, they would be able to force the Class 90 person to their knees and overwhelm them, but it would be a very slow, gradual process, and would be a struggle the entire time.

Basically, for most Classes between Class 03 to Class 100, so long as your opponent is within 3 Class levels of you, that person has a chance of knocking you out given enough punches. It just takes a lot more punches the further down you go. So a Class 70 individual could conceivably punch a Class 100 person out, it’s just that if they were in anything like a slugfest, they’ll be unconscious a ways before they get the chance to do so. Likewise, if an individual grapples with someone between up to 3 ranks lower, it will take time and effort to overwhelm them, though less time the further down you go. At 4 ranks and lower tho, the differences become more pronounced, to the point that someone 4 to 6 ranks lower than a stronger opponent is going to have to work very hard to KO that person, needing to hit often and accurately to make up for the lack of power, and have to almost never get hit in return. Guys like Spider-Man (Class 30) would need to either wear down much stronger opponents over time with near constant attacks, or augment their striking power with heavier objects and the like.

Class 125 characters and above are immensely strong individuals, and are effectively 2 and a half ranks above Class 100 types. Class 150 types are roughly 5 ranks above Class 100 types and so on. These are the guys that usually require some combination of teamwork, fighting smart and/or non-physical force to defeat, though as I mentioned, a Class 100 guy still has a shot against a Class 125 type, they would just be wise not to make a slugfest out of it.

Class 00 – Beings with a level of strength that is so small as to be virtually inconsequential when compared to a normal human being. Includes many small animals, insects, and the like.

Class 01 – Weak. Significantly below the average strength level of an adult human that engages in moderate regular exercise. This includes younger children, the elderly, certain physically undeveloped races and beings with crippling injuries/conditions.

Class 02 – Below Average. Below the strength level of an adult human that engages in moderate regular exercise. This can include individuals that simply don’t work out, underdeveloped teenagers, beings noticeably smaller than average, etc.

Class 03 – Average. The normal strength for an adult human that engages in moderate regular exercise.

Class 04 – Above Average. Slightly greater than what is found in the average human, usually indicating a larger than average build or above average exercise.

Class 05 – Athlete. Noticeably greater than the average human in terms of strength, indicating more extensive training or a daily job that requires more demanding physical ability, such as soldiers, police officers and fire fighters.

Class 06 – Professional Athlete. Significantly above the average person in raw strength, such as professional body builders, linebackers and the stronger professional wrestlers, martial artists and boxers.

Class 07 – Olympic Athlete. Capable of competing on world wide scale with the best the countries of the world have to offer.

Class 08 – Olympic Heavy Weight. Stronger even than other Olympic Athletes, generally the strongest men and women on the planet.

Class 09 – Peak Human. A level of strength found only in rare individuals, the strongest beings the human race can naturally produce at this time.

Class 10 – Low Enhanced Human. The minimum level of strength to be considered ‘superhuman’ strength wise, and is relatively easy to create through scientific and mystical augmentation. Can lift between 1,000 pounds and 1 ton.

Class 20 – Medium Enhanced Human. Can lift several tons, usually around 5 or so.

Class 30 – High Enhanced Human. Can lift between 10 and 15 tons.

Class 40 – Peak Enhanced Human. Can lift between 20 and 25 tons. Generally the limit of strength one can mass produce through artificial means.

Class 50 – Low Superhuman. Can lift between 30 and 50 tons.

Class 60 – Medium Superhuman. Can lift between 60 and 100 tons.

Class 70 – High Superhuman. Exact weight levels become more vague from this point forward, but the character can reliably lift several hundred tons, and occasionally push themselves to lift thousands of tons.

Class 80 – Peak Superhuman. Capable of reliably lifting thousands of tons, can occasionally push themselves to lift hundreds of thousands of tons. Generally the limit of what the human race can produce outside of incredible augmentation from outside forces.

Class 90 – Low Godlike. Capable of reliably lifting hundreds of thousands of tons, can occasionally push themselves to lift millions of tons. Beings of this strength can lift any man-made structure or object with effort/

Class 100 – Medium Godlike. Capable of reliably lifting millions of tons, can occasionally push themselves to lift billions of tons. Beings of this strength can lift immense natural formations with effort, including mountains and islands. Generally the limit of heroic characters strength levels.

Class 125 – High Godlike. Capable of reliably lifting billions of tons, and causing catastrophic damage as a mere side effect of relatively casual acts of strength.

Class 150 – Peak Godlike. Capable of mind boggling feats of strength that include the manipulation of celestial objects such as small moons.

Class 175 – Cosmic. Capable of manipulating even larger celestial masses, up to and including planetoids.

Class 200 – Beyond Cosmic. Capable of affecting matter on a level and scale difficult for most beings to conceive of.


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