Justice League: War

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DSumner
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby DSumner » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:10 pm

But wait, just like Marvel, if you watch it through the credits, they set up the sequel. :roll:
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Mr Mole » Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:23 pm

Just watched it. Ares' post covers my thoughts almost exactly.

This movie would only be slightly bad except for the misleading words "Justice League" in the title.

I generally liked the Flash's portrayal, although he was severely underutilized. Batman was okay. Cyborg was tolerable. Pretty much everyone else was bad to horrible and had zero connection to anything that ever made the characters worthwhile to begin with. Wonder Woman... Wow, I just don't have the words to describe how badly written her part was.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby The_Watchman » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:47 am

Badly written Wonder Woman? Say it ain't so!

At this point, I think digitally inserting Wonder Woman in for Perseus in Clash of the Titans and altering the audio to say Diana would be a better Wonder Woman movie than anything likely to get a mainstream release.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby saint_matthew » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:21 am

The_Watchman wrote:Badly written Wonder Woman? Say it ain't so!

At this point, I think digitally inserting Wonder Woman in for Perseus in Clash of the Titans and altering the audio to say Diana would be a better Wonder Woman movie than anything likely to get a mainstream release.


What you don't want to see the inevitable outcome of a mainstream Wonder Woman movie, in which Diana is playing the role of Batman.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:09 am

The idea of Wonder Woman as a strong competent hero who is good, smart, and kind blows the minds of writers in Hollywood.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby The_Watchman » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:31 am

Charles Phipps wrote:The idea of Wonder Woman as a strong competent hero who is good, smart, and kind blows the minds of writers in Hollywood.


That DC has failed to make a successful Wonder Woman TV series or movie in the last 25 years is one of the most damning indications of their ability to handle their properties. The "too complicated" excuse is total garbage when Batman: The Animated Series, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, The Dark Knight, and Batman and Robin have all been made about a single character. Complication is irrelevant. Pick a direction and go with it. Make it all about the Greek mythology. Ask 300, Clash of the Titans, and all the imitators if that stuff sells (talking ticket sales here, not quality). Or make it more comedic about her being a princess from a Utopian society working to adjust to life in a man's world. DC/WB holds the rights to what may be the only female character who could give Disney a run for icon status. Make a butt-kicking princess movie.

But then, this is the same company that seems to take all the knee-jerk internet witticisms about their characters to heart so Aquaman has to be a sulking barbarian that would never talk to mere fish (only killer sharks 'cause EXTREME!), Superman has to be a sulking martyr figure who hates being different, and Green Lantern has to be whatever the hell that movie was. And then there's Harley Quinn.

I just do not get the nu52 approach (which seems to go far beyond the comics). The Justice League animated series captured the power of its heroes and had some fantastic fights without having to resort to the brutal slaughter of this movie. Brave and the Bold showed that writers can embrace the inherent silliness of a crime-fighting mer-man and still make for a highly entertaining and bad-ass character. Paragons of good are not bad characters. Simon and Schuster figured it out over 70 years ago. Superhumans that kill are terrifying and robbed of all aspirational (rather than mere cathartic) qualities. When Superman, Wonder Woman, and the other characters of their power level kill, it's simple might makes right. Superheroes without the "hero" part. You can certainly make a good story out of morally gray protagonists. You just can't make a good Justice League story in anything but name.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:38 am

I think the contradiction is that Wonder Woman is a feminist icon and this scares male writers. They don't comprehend an awesome female hero equal to Batman and Superman is, by itself, feminist.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby The_Watchman » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:23 am

Charles Phipps wrote:I think the contradiction is that Wonder Woman is a feminist icon and this scares male writers. They don't comprehend an awesome female hero equal to Batman and Superman is, by itself, feminist.


I think that's one of a few reasons why Wonder Woman isn't really "equal" in DC comics outside of being put in the Trinity, apparently for no other reason than being their third character that wasn't replaced with a legacy character during the Silver Age. She rarely fights the other two and even more rarely does she win any contest with them outside of maybe a short scene where she might physically overpower Batman or mentally outwit Superman. I wish DC could find a consistent place for her to occupy but that's always been an issue for Wonder Woman. Usually she just gets substituted for whatever archetype the story needs, such as substituting her in for Maxima as "Superman's super-powered lover" in nu 52 or making her totally love Batman so she could be a Star Sapphire in Blackest Night.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:49 am

The_Watchman wrote:I think that's one of a few reasons why Wonder Woman isn't really "equal" in DC comics outside of being put in the Trinity, apparently for no other reason than being their third character that wasn't replaced with a legacy character during the Silver Age.


Yep. Diana's entire history can be summed up as "affirmative action hiring policy." If practically any other character had been created before Diana that character would take Diana's place.

The_Watchman wrote:She rarely fights the other two and even more rarely does she win any contest with them outside of maybe a short scene where she might physically overpower Batman or mentally outwit Superman. I wish DC could find a consistent place for her to occupy but that's always been an issue for Wonder Woman.


An that's always been one of her biggest issues: Even in her own book she doesn't matter. Even if you compare early Perez WW to early Byrne Superman. Superman is part of the universe & Wonder Woman isn't. She's from a place you can't go to, she gets her powers from a magical group that have nothing to do with the setting & she spends pretty much all of early run by Perez running around third world nations, doing mystical third world nation-y things.

Its not exactly a compelling establishment phase. Now imagine a WW title of that same era where instead of Perez, Byrne was writing it. Instead of traipsing around the third world doing mystical quests he decided what DC really needed was another Gotham, another Metropolis, a place for WW to call her own.... A place where WW's villains could actually expand in to something one could consider a rogues gallery, without sniggering.

An from there the setting could be expanded, to travelling to other areas, but always coming home to her own city.... Maybe Diana Prince actually becomes an honest to god secret identity.

Now that could have been a Wonder Woman worth reading about, one that actually belonged in the setting, one that could have evolved over time. Alas that's not what we got & the legacy of a character that didn't fit the universe has stuck with her ever since.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby The_Watchman » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:14 am

saint_matthew wrote:Now that could have been a Wonder Woman worth reading about, one that actually belonged in the setting, one that could have evolved over time. Alas that's not what we got & the legacy of a character that didn't fit the universe has stuck with her ever since.


I think that goes back even further than Perez. WW has always been designed to be an agent of change and that's a hard fit for a continuous shared universe. Unlike Superman, she doesn't believe people have to make their own way or that the primary role of the superhero is to save people from things they aren't ready for. New Frontier got that down perfectly. But in a shared universe, that means Wonder Woman is going to be challenging the status quo and would eventually either make the world drastically different from our own or else she'd just be constantly failing. So she gets put off in the mythological corner.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:36 am

As a long-time WW reader, they've had plenty of good runs.

My favorite was "West Wing Wonder Woman" where she fought mythological monsters when not doing diplomacy at her embassy.

Then they ditched that format because we can't have a consistent one.

:-(

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:10 pm

The_Watchman wrote:But in a shared universe, that means Wonder Woman is going to be challenging the status quo and would eventually either make the world drastically different from our own or else she'd just be constantly failing.


An she HAD to fail, because her intended change was pure grade A unworkable sexism. I mean just look at what WW is at her base: A character who moves to a foreign nation & spends all her time telling literally everyone else on the planet that they are doing it wrong because patriarchy/men & only by doing it my way, can you possibly be doing it right, because I'm from an island of women. :roll:

So its combines a lack of any actual possible change (because paradise island was only paradise due to being favoured of the gods), combined with what was essentially feminist essentialism (man bad, woman good paradigm). :D

An people wonder why this doesn't catch on in the contemporary world? Hmmmmm, I wonder why a dead end ideology, based on nothing but badmouthing the achievements of men in a society didn't catch on with the primarily male audience of comics, once all the fetishistic bondage fuel was removed from the canon? :lol:
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:07 am

While I had a DCU NPC say, "Well excuse me, woman whose from an isolationalist society of immortals..."

I think the Amazons have long been portrayed as peace-loving and tolerant folk with PI getting opened up to visitors from all nations.

Sadly, they dumped that for EVIL Amazons.

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Re: Justice League: War

Postby saint_matthew » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:43 am

Charles Phipps wrote:While I had a DCU NPC say, "Well excuse me, woman whose from an isolationalist society of immortals..."


Actually its worse than that, you also missed the stagnated dead culture that hasn't changed in 2,000 years (except they all speak English), who function on a socialist base that subsumes individuality, with no industry or commerce to speak of, with no chance of ever improving oneself even though one is immortal (depends on the version of amazons), with enforced military service for life in preparation of one day having to fight the patriarchy, due to a misleading ideology of gender based xenophobia.... All under a divinely empowered theocratic, autocratic dictatorship. (An when I say divinely inspired I mean the gods have a direct handing in meddling with the society, the amazons & every aspect of there lives)

Heck Themyscira makes North Korea look like the home of social freedom. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Themyscira is paradise island in the same way North Korea is the Glorious Democratic People's Republic of Korea.... Not at all. :lol:

So no, I don't think you can call the amazons peace-loving and tolerant, if anything they were the exact opposite of peace loving & tolerant.... This is a culture that for the longest time punished any man who steeped upon there island with immediate death & has daily mandatory military drills in preparation for the day when patriarchs world attacks. :roll:

As for Amazons Attack, Amazons Attack is a perfect example of what happens when an autocratic culture is told to do something they know to be morally wrong... They do it any, because they have no option not to, there is no checks and balances, there is just the word of your perfect leader.... A perfect leader who has spent 2,000 years telling you about the evils of patriarchs world & training you to defend yourself against it: The amazons had sewn the seeds of there own destruction, Granny Goodness just exploited what was already there.
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Re: Justice League: War

Postby Charles Phipps » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:03 am

Heck Themyscira makes North Korea look like the home of social freedom. In fact I'd go so far as to say that Themyscira is paradise island in the same way North Korea is the Glorious Democratic People's Republic of Korea.... Not at all. :lol:


This is dumb and very wrong.

:P

Sorry. I don't agree and I think a lot of your statements about the island are not true. I say this not at all as a guy who has played Wonderboy in his DC adventures.


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