Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby death tribble » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:02 am

I have also seen the movie and echo whay some of the other posters have said. The fights in Smallville and then when Superman returns to Metropolis to fight Zod show too much property destruction. Hurling the other Kryptonian into the railyard risks lives and that is something Superman does not do. The rescue of the people on the rig at the start is Superman through and through. The two fights are not however.
Zod is still Terence Stamp and Superman is still Christopher Reeve. And Ursa had more personality than Faora.
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby saint_matthew » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:38 pm

death tribble wrote:And Ursa had more personality than Faora.


Everyone had more personality than Faora... A wet sponge has more personality than Faora.
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby HappyDaze » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:21 am

But Faora with nothing covering her but a wet sponge would have lots of personality. :twisted:

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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby saint_matthew » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:01 am

HappyDaze wrote:But Faora with nothing covering her but a wet sponge would have lots of personality. :twisted:


Possibly the only way you could make her part of the movie watchable.
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby Bladewind » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:03 am

Funny... despite the lack of personality her part of the movie was almost the most watchable to me....

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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby danelsan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:54 pm

I say what we need is a crossover of sorts, with Antje Traue and Cobie Smulders naked-fighting for the sponge :twisted:

For the ladies, perhaps another version with Chris Hemsworth and Henry Cavill?
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby saint_matthew » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:31 pm

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videol ... n-of-steel

Zod reviewing Man of Steel.... Not the Man of Steel Zod mind you, but the real movie Zod. It is.... Hil, wait for it, arious. :lol:
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby Thakowsaizmu » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:49 pm

danelsan wrote:I say what we need is a crossover of sorts, with Antje Traue and Cobie Smulders naked-fighting for the sponge :twisted:

Rest assured, some of us ladies are far more interested in this... :mrgreen:

As for Man of Steel: I got around to watching it after it got to the cheap theatre out by me. The cost of the movie, pop corn and a drink together comes to $7. Just to give you an idea. So anyway, my Girlfriend, a friend of mine and I decided we were going to make a night of the cheap theatre. Man of Steel was up first, followed by R.I.P.D. Now, in its own right R.I.P.D. was a funny film, however, back to back with Man of Steel, I found myself thinking that R.I.P.D. was cinematic gold. With an all star cast, brilliant plot and fantastic graphics, seeing R.I.P.D. was absolutely the best part of Man of Steel!
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby The_Watchman » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:04 pm

David Goyer on why Superman killing was totally not just to be cool and really just because he didn't want to rely on the crutch of being consistent to the character as portrayed in other media.


David Goyer wrote:“This is one area – and I’ve written comic books as well and this is where I disagree with some of my fellow comic book writers – ‘Superman doesn’t kill’. It’s a rule that exists outside of the narrative and I just don’t believe in rules like that. I believe when you’re writing film or television, you can’t rely on a crutch or rule that exists outside of the narrative of the film.

“So the situation was, Zod says ‘I’m not going to stop until you kill me or I kill you.’ The reality is no prison on the planet could hold him and in our film Superman can’t fly to the moon, and we didn’t want to come up with that crutch.”

“Also our movie was in a way Superman Begins, he’s not really Superman until the end of the film. We wanted him to have had that experience of having taken a life and carry that through onto the next films. Because he’s Superman and because people idolise him he will have to hold himself to a higher standard.”


So yeah, if there was any doubt that Goyer just straight up did not understand Superman,his quote eliminates that doubt. Superman is aspirational, not inspirational. The point of his character is not to be like Spider-man and to struggle to be a proper hero. The point is that he has all this power and he chooses to use it selflessly. Superman fails when he can't save everyone and struggles with exactly what he should do. He does not struggle with how to be a hero at all. Captain America is much the same way and thankfully the writers of The First Avenger were willing to accept that and made a far better film as a result.

An "out of narrative" rule that is tied intrinsically to the character is something that needs to be in the narrative. The key to making a good adaptation is recognizing what is intrinsic and what can be cut out and changed. Superman's code against killing (especially after a villain gives him an ultimatum to do so) is not something that can be cut out and still have Superman. I see no reason anyone would idolize Kal-El after the events of Man of Steel. Fear him and maybe respect his power? Sure. Idolize? Hell no. He won by pure power, not by moral supremacy.
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby saint_matthew » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:31 pm

The_Watchman wrote:He won by pure power, not by moral supremacy.


Most assuredly not by application of brain power... Which even i could find a way to do, in fact i did.
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby danelsan » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:23 pm

David Goyer wrote:in our film Superman can’t fly to the moon

I don't see why not. After Zod miraculously absorbed 30 years worth of solar energy in minutes and they start fighting, Clark temporarily manages to shove Zod into space. Both seem able to cross that distance much faster than anything NASA can make and they don't seem to suffer any ill effects from the environmental conditions in space
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby The_Watchman » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:25 am

danelsan wrote:
David Goyer wrote:in our film Superman can’t fly to the moon

I don't see why not. After Zod miraculously absorbed 30 years worth of solar energy in minutes and they start fighting, Clark temporarily manages to shove Zod into space. Both seem able to cross that distance much faster than anything NASA can make and they don't seem to suffer any ill effects from the environmental conditions in space


An excellent point. I think it would have worked far better for Superman to have a power advantage based on how much energy he's absorbed but to have that mitigated by Zod's military training and Superman depleting his energy constantly saving the civilians deliberately endangered by Zod. Give me a Superman completely exhausted from pulling people from harm's way and taking the hits for them then maybe I'll buy the "no other choice" argument (though it's still crappy writing). In a summer filled with superheroes putting their lives on the line and pushing themselves to the limits to pull off heroic rescues (Kick Ass 2, Iron Man 3, Pacific Rim, etc), it's just mind-boggling that Superman doesn't.

Seriously. The "out of narrative" thing is just so idiotic. Yes, nothing HAS to be included in a narrative that the writer (and/or people running the show) don't want, but if you're going to use an existing property, there's some baggage that goes with it. I'm just imagining David Goyer doing other iconic characters now.

"So I decided 'Sherlock Holmes is a brilliant detective' is such an out of narrative rule and I felt it was better if he was actually a champion deer hunter. So we've still got the deerstalker cap but all that detective stuff just doesn't fit our narrative."

"I really don't think 'robbing from the rich and giving to the poor' makes a lot of narrative sense for Robin Hood with him being a nobleman and all. We've made him more of a Randian Objectivist."
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby Cinder » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:41 am

The_Watchman wrote:"So I decided 'Sherlock Holmes is a brilliant detective' is such an out of narrative rule and I felt it was better if he was actually a champion deer hunter. So we've still got the deerstalker cap but all that detective stuff just doesn't fit our narrative."

"I really don't think 'robbing from the rich and giving to the poor' makes a lot of narrative sense for Robin Hood with him being a nobleman and all. We've made him more of a Randian Objectivist."


To play devil's advocate:

By making these analogies are you essentially stating that a moral code of not killing is so important to the character of Superman as to make him unrecognizable (figuratively speaking) without it. Because you reference two things that effectively define the character with hood and holmes to make your point.

If you say what does Holmes do? People say he is a detective.

If you say what does Robin Hood do? People say he steals from the rich and gives to the poor. [Maybe "he shoots arrows," for the less clever :) ]

It would take a few "and what else?" before you got to "he doesn't kill" with Supes.

Caveat: I must say if it was up to me, murdering Superman is not the Superman I would write, but their choice to do so does not invalidate it for me.

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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby The_Watchman » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:07 am

Cinder wrote:It would take a few "and what else?" before you got to "he doesn't kill" with Supes.


Perhaps. I can certainly understand that mindset but I see "he doesn't kill" as an intrinsic part of "he is a man that came from the sky to do only good" which I think is the first key component of Superman as an icon. It's that emphasis on good that makes Superman killing so repellant to me. Willingly taking a life is an evil act even if it is a necessary act that prevents further evil. Superman doing that makes him less than capital G Good to me. If he tried to stop Zod and in doing so, Zod destroyed himself, I could deal with that. Superman failing doesn't reduce his goodness as it's the act of trying that defines his value as an inspirational icon. With all his power, Superman could just focus on the things that he's guaranteed to succeed at. But instead he tries to save everyone and that goal is very likely beyond even his power. He chose a day job where his success is not dependent on his superpowers for anything but time management. He will do everything in his power to do good and understands that willingly killing means he is no longer Superman. When he kills Doomsday, it costs him his life. Killing Myzysptlk means giving up his powers. Killing the Phantom Zone criminals nearly destroys his mind and constantly haunts him.

Superman killing bothers me because he embodies Good. As much as "Truth, Justice, and The American Way" is one of his catch phrases, I don't think he is really the embodiment of those things (unless you interpret The American Way as "Do whatever you can to make life better for everyone") the same way Batman embodies Justice, Spider-Man embodies Responsibility, or Captain America embodies Freedom. Batman killing or even letting someone die that he could save feels wrong but it at least can meet the idea of Justice triumphing over Injustice. Captain America gunning down Nazis or Loki's goons can still be serving Freedom when he's fighting the willing servants of Tyranny. Superior Spider-Man is at least partially built on the idea that Responsibility may require brutal acts of violence.

Superman killing even violates Superman's assigned representation of Hope in Man of Steel. Jor-El's dream was false. His son is not Hope. Hope is the dream of a better future. Taking a life and snuffing out a future is a violation of Hope. It's giving in to Despair and saying "this can not get better." When he lets Jonathan Kent die and especially when he kills Zod, Kal El shows that he does not deserve to wear the Kryptonian word for Hope. It does not fit the narrative and nothing in or out of the movie indicates that this gross violation of the movie's oft-spoken themes was done for intentional dissonance.
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Re: Man of Steel 2013 film SPOILERS

Postby Arkrite » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:39 am

I think the problem is that they assumed Superman needed a character arc to become the "good guy".

He didn't. Him being the good guy should have been a given. They didn't feel the need to make Captain America a guy who had to grow into being a good person. He just was.

And for me Superman was always the ideal. He didn't do what was easy, he did what was right.

And when Superman killed Zod? It wasn't because it was the right thing to do, it was the easy thing to do.

The hard thing would have been figuring out how to keep him contained, and guarding against him.

The easy thing to do is just off him, wipe your hands and call it a day. You don't have to worry anymore, threat resolved.

And that leads me into a problem, I mean, now that Superman killed Zod for threatening four people why wouldn't he just kill his next opponent? How do they justify that now? And at what level is that level of recourse acceptable


For me if somebody asked what Superman does, the response would be save people.
If you ask what Superman is, you'd probably get an answer more about being an ideal to strive towards.
To do what's right, in spite of what's easy, and in spite of the costs.

But maybe I'm just getting old.


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