JLA Adventures

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danelsan
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby danelsan » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:47 pm

Time travel pretty much always means plot holes. Just gotta live with that and enjoy the entertaining parts - the Terminator and Back to the Future movies are not renowned for their impervious plot, but most will agree they are great despite that.

Now, this was not on the level of being a classic for the decades to come, but it was quite enjoyable for me.

I was slightly disappointed that Karate Kid couldn't even beat Robin, though. I get that this version is a teen hero with basically no experience, but knowing ALL the martial arts and seeing weakpoints should likely close that gap nicely.
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:01 pm

danelsan wrote:Time travel pretty much always means plot holes. Just gotta live with that and enjoy the entertaining parts - the Terminator and Back to the Future movies are not renowned for their impervious plot, but most will agree they are great despite that.


Unfortunately that wasn't the case here. It wasn't all that great & when you then use a time paradox to win & that same paradox would mean that you would immediately lose, it stops being a plot hole & becomes a plot chasm.
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby danelsan » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:28 pm

I guess I just don't consider it as such a problem. Time travel pretty much seems to disables my ability to care about plot holes.

I think it might have something to do with the fact that time travel is entirely made of bullshit, so the way it works is completely arbitrary and up to the writer of any given story.

I mean..."you then use a time paradox to win & that same paradox would mean that you would immediately lose" doesn't necessarily hold water, because the author could come out and say any comic book pseudo-science-magic babble like "no, doesn't work that way. The expansion of the chronofield and the superimposition of dynamic hypertime makes it so causality only applies selectively" and within their story it would be true.

And one couldn't argue "but that bullshit hurts verisimilitude" because you can't have time travel without arbitrary bullshit, there is nothing verisimilar about Time Travel.

Sure, it looks inconsistent as ***deleted***, because there is no way to have all these implied bullshit rules spelled out, much less adequately explained, which can hurt one's ability for immersion and suspension of disbelief.

As I said, It just doesn't affect me much. My reaction to that was a brief "heh" or a smile at every plot hole without it diminishing my enjoyment of the cartoon. It is kinda weird, as I tend to be pretty anal about stupid plot holes, but time travel just doesn't trip my pet peeve detector :lol:
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby ghostman76 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:34 pm

danelsan wrote:I guess I just don't consider it as such a problem. Time travel pretty much seems to disables my ability to care about plot holes.

I think it might have something to do with the fact that time travel is entirely made of bullshit, so the way it works is completely arbitrary and up to the writer of any given story.

I mean..."you then use a time paradox to win & that same paradox would mean that you would immediately lose" doesn't necessarily hold water, because the author could come out and say any comic book pseudo-science-magic babble like "no, doesn't work that way. The expansion of the chronofield and the superimposition of dynamic hypertime makes it so causality only applies selectively" and within their story it would be true.

And one couldn't argue "but that bullshit hurts verisimilitude" because you can't have time travel without arbitrary bullshit, there is nothing verisimilar about Time Travel.

Sure, it looks inconsistent as ***deleted***, because there is no way to have all these implied bullshit rules spelled out, much less adequately explained, which can hurt one's ability for immersion and suspension of disbelief.

As I said, It just doesn't affect me much. My reaction to that was a brief "heh" or a smile at every plot hole without it diminishing my enjoyment of the cartoon. It is kinda weird, as I tend to be pretty anal about stupid plot holes, but time travel just doesn't trip my pet peeve detector :lol:


I like the way you think. Then again, I'm not the type that demands stuff that could never actually happen to be as realistic as possible. I'd rather something be as enjoyable as possible rather than as plausible as possible....otherwise I wouldn't like the super hero genre at all.
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:55 pm

danelsan wrote:I mean..."you then use a time paradox to win & that same paradox would mean that you would immediately lose" doesn't necessarily hold water, because the author could come out and say any comic book pseudo-science-magic babble like "no, doesn't work that way.


Except it does work that way, they just used it that way as there Hail Mary. It either works or it doesn't work.

Okay, spoilers beyond this point.

So Luthor gets stuck in ice, ends up in the future, in a museum. He is released in the future & uses a magical doo hickey to go back in time, taking two kids with him. In the present Luthor teams up with the Legion of Doom, who once again use the doo hickey to go back in time, to stop the JL from ever forming & erasing its members from the time stream. They succeed, so the future kids think "oh I know, we'll just cause a paradox by making sure that Luthor is located in the present & can't go to the future in an ice block, thereby bringing back the JLA members by causing a paradox."

So that's exactly what they do & it works. The JLA members re-appear & the future Luthor vanishes.... But the kids remain. How can the kids remain when it was Luthor in the future, a Luthor that now has never existed who brought the kids into the present.
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby ghostman76 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:01 pm

Just off the top of my head....since they are the beings who instigated the paradox, they are outside the field of causality that it creates, and are thus, immune to it's effects.

How's that? Again, that's just the first thing that popped into my head, and sure, it's thin...but then again, so is time travel as a plot device.
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby Ares » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:09 pm

danelsan wrote:Now, this was not on the level of being a classic for the decades to come, but it was quite enjoyable for me.

I was slightly disappointed that Karate Kid couldn't even beat Robin, though. I get that this version is a teen hero with basically no experience, but knowing ALL the martial arts and seeing weakpoints should likely close that gap nicely.


I took it mostly that Val wasn't really trying to hurt Robin, and was fighting defensively at first. I want to say we see Robin land a solid hit on Val with his staff precisely once, whereas once Val started fighting back, he was landing multiple hits on Robin, any one of which likely could have killed the kid if he'd wanted. Val really showcased what he could do when he was fighting Grodd, Black Manta and Captain Cold by himself, handily holding his own against three supervillains, and then punching a GLACIER out of existence. For me, it was a nice way to show that Robin does have some solid combat skills, given the poor guy wouldn't have had a fight scene in the film otherwise.

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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby Ares » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:13 pm

ghostman76 wrote:Just off the top of my head....since they are the beings who instigated the paradox, they are outside the field of causality that it creates, and are thus, immune to it's effects.

How's that? Again, that's just the first thing that popped into my head, and sure, it's thin...but then again, so is time travel as a plot device.


It also seemed that Time Trapper had to make an effort to remove a paradox from the timeline. When Luthor first sends his goons back to ensure Superman never arrived on Earth, it wasn't until after they'd managed to change it that Time Trapper noted a paradox had been created, which allowed him to erase the present era JLA from existence. Likewise, when Val and Dawnstar freed Luthor in the modern era, it created a paradox that allowed Time Trapper to erase the Luthor that controlled him from existence. He recognized Val and Dawnstar as paradoxes, but before he could erase them, the League showed up.

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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:52 pm

Ares wrote:It also seemed that Time Trapper had to make an effort to remove a paradox from the timeline. When Luthor first sends his goons back to ensure Superman never arrived on Earth, it wasn't until after they'd managed to change it that Time Trapper noted a paradox had been created, which allowed him to erase the present era JLA from existence. Likewise, when Val and Dawnstar freed Luthor in the modern era, it created a paradox that allowed Time Trapper to erase the Luthor that controlled him from existence. He recognized Val and Dawnstar as paradoxes, but before he could erase them, the League showed up.


Which would be a great explanation except for one minor problem: None of that actually happened. You appear to be inventing things to save a plot that wasn't all that to start with (it is after all just a new version of an episode of the Super Friends).

I know we all hoped that it was going to be at the very least watchable, so we could get some classic JLA story telling minus the needlessly gritty NU52 elements, but alas it is not to be. It was a pretty weak plot, told in a pedestrian fashion, with some glaring issues with the technical aspects of the production from animation, through voice acting. The only thing they actually improved on was giving Wonder Woman a much more kick ass costume than we've seen in the comics pretty much ever.

An I think that's about all I've got to say on this one: It's a cheaply made, cheaply produced, rush job, that was sold exclusively though Target US as a stealth release due to WB perceiving it only having a limited reach. Its not going to be a resurgence of the JLU of old, or a Super Friends for our generation... it was just a lazy crash grab, suitable for children, tolerable to slightly older children & dull to most adults. At this point I'm happy I didn't find a copy to purchase, because I was more than a little disappointed.
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby danelsan » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:56 pm

Ares wrote:
ghostman76 wrote:Just off the top of my head....since they are the beings who instigated the paradox, they are outside the field of causality that it creates, and are thus, immune to it's effects.

How's that? Again, that's just the first thing that popped into my head, and sure, it's thin...but then again, so is time travel as a plot device.


It also seemed that Time Trapper had to make an effort to remove a paradox from the timeline. When Luthor first sends his goons back to ensure Superman never arrived on Earth, it wasn't until after they'd managed to change it that Time Trapper noted a paradox had been created, which allowed him to erase the present era JLA from existence. Likewise, when Val and Dawnstar freed Luthor in the modern era, it created a paradox that allowed Time Trapper to erase the Luthor that controlled him from existence. He recognized Val and Dawnstar as paradoxes, but before he could erase them, the League showed up.


Of course, this still leaves us with at least one considerable inconsistency in the ending. If changing the time-line doesn't actually alters the chain of events, only creates a paradox upon which certain entities such as the Time Trapper can exert power, why does stopping the Legion and the Time Trapper results in different events in the time of the Legion?

Again, this could be explained away in various manners with technobable, but it wasn't and it is easy to see why it could bother someone. Heck, if it wasn't for this particular source of inconsistencies to exist outside my "annoyance radar" I probably would be pretty disappointed with the plot holes too.
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Re: JLA Adventures

Postby Ares » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:12 pm

danelsan wrote:
Ares wrote:
ghostman76 wrote:Just off the top of my head....since they are the beings who instigated the paradox, they are outside the field of causality that it creates, and are thus, immune to it's effects.

How's that? Again, that's just the first thing that popped into my head, and sure, it's thin...but then again, so is time travel as a plot device.


It also seemed that Time Trapper had to make an effort to remove a paradox from the timeline. When Luthor first sends his goons back to ensure Superman never arrived on Earth, it wasn't until after they'd managed to change it that Time Trapper noted a paradox had been created, which allowed him to erase the present era JLA from existence. Likewise, when Val and Dawnstar freed Luthor in the modern era, it created a paradox that allowed Time Trapper to erase the Luthor that controlled him from existence. He recognized Val and Dawnstar as paradoxes, but before he could erase them, the League showed up.


Of course, this still leaves us with at least one considerable inconsistency in the ending. If changing the time-line doesn't actually alters the chain of events, only creates a paradox upon which certain entities such as the Time Trapper can exert power, why does stopping the Legion and the Time Trapper results in different events in the time of the Legion?

Again, this could be explained away in various manners with technobable, but it wasn't and it is easy to see why it could bother someone. Heck, if it wasn't for this particular source of inconsistencies to exist outside my "annoyance radar" I probably would be pretty disappointed with the plot holes too.


The difference seems to be due to, once again, Val and Dawnstar's affect on the time stream. Originally, with Luthor captive, the Legion of Doom broke up, and the future was nice and perfect. Then, Val and Dawny go back in time with Luthor, and in the process free Luthor in the present. That would justify a change in time by itself. Furthermore, Grood points out that what Val and Dawny told him gives him new insights and presents him with new possibilities, and so rather than the Legion disbanding because of the lack of Luthor, they're going to regroup and attempt some new plan.

Since Time Trapper never removed Val and Dawny, their influence on the past still remains, and the changes that will be caused by Lex and the Legion of Doom will alter the future, necessitating them going back in time to try and fix things again.


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