The decline of modern comics...

Discuss anything vaguely M&M related here, such as comics, movies, and action figures.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby Flying Cobra » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:41 pm

ghostman76 wrote:Hyper, don't take it personally. I'd be willing to wager that most people on this board, whether they are willing to admit it or not, would love to say that they were part of a creative team that worked for one of the big two. And anyone can say whatever they want about the business practices of companies like Marvel or DC, but to say that every single artist, writer, inker, colorist, or even editor that works for them is devoid of artistry or creatively bankrupt is the height of boneheaded cynicism.

People may not like what others create. They may think that they are making the wrong decisions about their favorite characters, but it's not cool to take shots at their creative integrity.



Ooooo!!! *gets popcorn*

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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:37 pm

hypervirtue wrote:I'd love to write for Captain America


Sure, but do you want to do that working for Marvel as it is right now? Not Marvel as it was at the height of its creativity, not Marvel as it will be once the industry gets a kick up the arse, Marvel as it is right now.

Because there are many characters I'd love to write too, but not to the point that I would want to write them for either contemporary DC or Marvel & that's not going to change for some time yet.

hypervirtue wrote:... And I mean... Just to point out... I have written for Marvel before... I didn't think it was devoid of artistry.


Again, I'm talking about contemporary DC & Marvel. There was a time when DC & Marvel did great things, took chances (some of which failed entirely) & let writers really stretch.... An then it just became A JOB. Artists & writers just started to phone it in, much earlier on the Marvel side than the DC side & now we've got a contemporary industry in which creativity is no longer wanted & is now considered a liability rather than a boon.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby greycrusader » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:00 pm

ghostman76 wrote:Hyper, don't take it personally. I'd be willing to wager that most people on this board, whether they are willing to admit it or not, would love to say that they were part of a creative team that worked for one of the big two. And anyone can say whatever they want about the business practices of companies like Marvel or DC, but to say that every single artist, writer, inker, colorist, or even editor that works for them is devoid of artistry or creatively bankrupt is the height of boneheaded cynicism.

People may not like what others create. They may think that they are making the wrong decisions about their favorite characters, but it's not cool to take shots at their creative integrity.


Absolutely. Yes, working in the current atmosphere of DC or Marvel would NOT be easy for many creative people, as a lot is being driven by people who are not necessarily even fans of the genre or industry; but the exposure, opportunities, and yes, paycheck is what most creators hope to attain. Now, obviously the wisest (and perhaps necessary) thing to do is for writers/artists/colorists/creators to also do work in other media, genres, or perhaps even fields entirely, as sometimes creative and corporate are not going to mix, especially in today's environment. But indie work and/or self-publishing is perhaps even more daunting if one is not already a "big name"-and "name" creators get cut a bit of slack even at the Big Two (e.g., Morrison basically got to ignore the whole nu52 and just finish his Batman Inc storyline).

And there is still plenty of interesting work going on at DC and Marvel-Superior Spider-Man, for example, though that is doomed to end when the new movie rolls out, if not months before.

All my best.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:17 pm

greycrusader wrote:Absolutely. Yes, working in the current atmosphere of DC or Marvel would NOT be easy for many creative people, as a lot is being driven by people who are not necessarily even fans of the genre or industry; but the exposure, opportunities, and yes, paycheck is what most creators hope to attain.


The only question is how much of your soul are you willing to give up for that pay-check? How much artistry are you willing to sacrifice on the altar of DC & Marvels current model of money over creativity, quantity over quality paradigm. Or as the old saying goes: Is the juice worth the squeeze.... At the moment I think the answer for about 90% of us (assuming we all had the skill to work in the industry) would have to be no.

The juice (writing for comics you loved in years past), is not worth the squeeze (having to work in an industry in which creativity is stagnating, as marvel becomes a movie IP generation system which mass produces material only for its 4 franchises & DC has hollowed out the majority of its content to be 'edgy').

I personally have heaps of great title ideas for both DC & Marvel, but there is not enough money in the world to convince me to work for either of those companies at the moment: Not creatively, not fiscally & not as part of the current industry direction.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby ghostman76 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:20 pm

greycrusader wrote:Absolutely. Yes, working in the current atmosphere of DC or Marvel would NOT be easy for many creative people, as a lot is being driven by people who are not necessarily even fans of the genre or industry; but the exposure, opportunities, and yes, paycheck is what most creators hope to attain. Now, obviously the wisest (and perhaps necessary) thing to do is for writers/artists/colorists/creators to also do work in other media, genres, or perhaps even fields entirely, as sometimes creative and corporate are not going to mix, especially in today's environment. But indie work and/or self-publishing is perhaps even more daunting if one is not already a "big name"-and "name" creators get cut a bit of slack even at the Big Two (e.g., Morrison basically got to ignore the whole nu52 and just finish his Batman Inc storyline).

And there is still plenty of interesting work going on at DC and Marvel-Superior Spider-Man, for example, though that is doomed to end when the new movie rolls out, if not months before.

All my best.


Very good points all around. Just the cache that comes from working for the two biggest companies in the industry you choose is worth something to creative types, then all the other fringe benefits as well add even more.

As you said about Superior Spider-Man, it gets lost in the shuffle when get let our views of the industry get so calcified because there is so much bad content out there is that even with all the bad stories, horrid art, and worse business decisions that happen, there are still people at both companies that are living their dream and making stories that come right from their hearts.

And the only thing that changes by talking about something is that it can spur someone into actual action. Everyone who has a story to tell should make their level best effort to get that story out there. I really commend Darrin for pushing to get his work out there. I hope it works. I hope it's successful. If more people did it and got it to work, it might even shake up things at the Big 2 as well.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby Darrin Kelley » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:53 pm

I've been working on my superhero universe for well over 20 years. It's been fun and I am proud of the work I have done. And my partner has simply added more good to the mix.

Once these books become available, I will be very happy. It's the challenge of a lifetime.

Marvel & DC had better watch out! Because I have a few surprises for them.

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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:23 pm

Darrin Kelley wrote:Marvel & DC had better watch out! Because I have a few surprises for them.


Is that surprise that you have a multi-million dollar silent backer? Because that would be an awesome surprise.... I'd be surprised by that, but in a good way. I'd be all like "oh damn comic book industry, you are in trouble now." After all you remember the last time DC was really REALLY at the top of its game? Yep, it was when Marvel came along & revitalised the genre with its Stan Lee/Ditko creations & gave DC some actual competition.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby Darrin Kelley » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:15 am

saint_matthew wrote:
Darrin Kelley wrote:Marvel & DC had better watch out! Because I have a few surprises for them.


Is that surprise that you have a multi-million dollar silent backer? Because that would be an awesome surprise.... I'd be surprised by that, but in a good way. I'd be all like "oh damn comic book industry, you are in trouble now." After all you remember the last time DC was really REALLY at the top of its game? Yep, it was when Marvel came along & revitalised the genre with its Stan Lee/Ditko creations & gave DC some actual competition.


It would be lovely if I had that. It would solve a lot of issues I have. But no. that's not it.

I have new approaches to various popular comic book methods. Such as a solution to the irritating issue of crossovers. And I'll explain right now what that is. It is just something the big guys don't do. And I designed it for my very first crossover story.

I presented it to a local comic book store owner. And they told me they loved the approach. They said it would reduce a lot of paperwork on their end and save them and their customers a huge headache. That it would be a welcome change.

Instead of having the storyline cross over into different books and hussling the readers to buy books of a series they don't necessarily want, I would make the story complete from their point of view in the series they already follow. In each series the stories intersected, the story would simply be told from the point of view of the characters in that series. So yes, the readers would get the whole story in the point of view they cared about. And would not be forced to buy boooks from an extra series they might not want in the first place.

If people wanted to look at the story from different points of view, well the option to do so would be there. But without trickery. The choice to do so would entirely be theirs. I would simply give them a few road signs to do so, should they wish to.

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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:43 am

Darrin Kelley wrote:Instead of having the storyline cross over into different books and hussling the readers to buy books of a series they don't necessarily want, I would make the story complete from their point of view in the series they already follow. In each series the stories intersected, the story would simply be told from the point of view of the characters in that series. So yes, the readers would get the whole story in the point of view they cared about. And would not be forced to buy boooks from an extra series they might not want in the first place.


Hate to break it to you but its been done before: Slingers, issue One.

People were not fans.... Plus there is the issue that you now need to make the story make sense from two separate narrative stand points. Not saying it can't work, just saying it would be work to get it to work... Possibly a solution, maybe not, wont know until someone tries it.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby Darrin Kelley » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:28 pm

saint_matthew wrote:Hate to break it to you but its been done before: Slingers, issue One.

People were not fans.... Plus there is the issue that you now need to make the story make sense from two separate narrative stand points. Not saying it can't work, just saying it would be work to get it to work... Possibly a solution, maybe not, wont know until someone tries it.


The work to get it done in my mind is worth it. Because it also treats the readers with respect. Rather than treating them like marks simply to be drained of every ounce of money possible.

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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby Darrin Kelley » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:44 pm

The way it was done in Slingers was for each character of the group, from what I understand. And that was still a gimmick to try to make the readership still buy each of the different number ones. And that is definitely not what I am doing.

The first crossover story is about two different sets of heroic characters who end up colliding. Two of my title books.

Each of the two series are about two very different types of heroes. One a conventional superhero team. One definitely not. And the results of that collision changes things for both groups forever. Shakes both titles to their core.

In this story, illustrating the different sides of the equasion are very important to me as a writer. As well as making seeing through those different points of view compelling and interesting. The heroes of the opposing series will be seen in an entirely different light through the lense of the other one.

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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby ghostman76 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:58 pm

It sounds interesting to me, and not like a gimmick, but like a story telling technique...especially if it will have long standing implications for the titles involved.

The truth is, there are no new stories to tell. Everything has been done before. It's how each new writer or artist does their interpretation of those conventions that makes them seem fresh and new.
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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby Darrin Kelley » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:52 pm

ghostman76 wrote:It sounds interesting to me, and not like a gimmick, but like a story telling technique...especially if it will have long standing implications for the titles involved.

The truth is, there are no new stories to tell. Everything has been done before. It's how each new writer or artist does their interpretation of those conventions that makes them seem fresh and new.


It is actually the storytelling method I plan to use for all crossover stories. It's my planned methodology. It's not a gimmick of any kind.

If someone wants to pick up multiple of my different series crossing over at once, it just seems to me that I should give them their money's worth. That they get a different experience with each series that is part of the mix.

I'm definitely not a fan of how crossovers have been handled by other companies in the past. In fact, I think it's insulting to the readership to try and hussle them into buying books of other series they might not already have planned to. I don't need trickery to sell my books. I need support of real fans who know that my business side considers them more than just a one time sale.

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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby Kyle » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:10 pm

There have been several crossovers over the years to employ that technique, and really, it's the best way to do things. It allows the reader to get the whole story from the perspective of the characters / title they're interested in, yet allows for a shared universe, and allows the reader to be introduced to other characters without forcing them to purchase other books.

Good on you for not wanting to bilk your potential readers, Darrin.

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Re: The decline of modern comics...

Postby King Snarf » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:09 am

hypervirtue wrote:
saint_matthew wrote:
King Snarf wrote: One of their "helpful" suggestions was that if you wanted to write comics for a major publisher, you should first self-publish your own. I read that and thought, "They've never actually done that, have they?"


An lets be honest here, who ACTUALLY wants to write for DC or Marvel anymore? Its a pay-check devoid of any of the artistry that gave them there longevity to start with. Between DC's ability to do or say at least one stupid thing a day & marvels just being so creatively bankrupt they are still relying solely on properties that were created before the late 80's, who here is NOT waiting to see what thing comes along & knocks both companies out of their rut?


...

I'd love to write for Captain America... And I mean... Just to point out... I have written for Marvel before... I didn't think it was devoid of artistry. I worked really hard on those scripts. I mean, yeah, it was X-Men Unlimited, which was a terrible book, but I mean that's kind of hurtful to say.


Yeah, I don't think Marvel is as bad as you're making it out to be. They've been going outside of traditional circles and hiring guys like Brian Clevinger (Atomic Robo, 8-Bit Theater) and Chris Hastings (Dr. McNinja) to write comics for them. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if they went and hired the kid who writes Axe Cop to do a story, and that would be THE GREATEST COMIC EVER.
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