Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

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Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Vexous » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:38 pm

So it seems Captain Marvel is ending with issue 17, apparently it is now a bi-monthly title to boot. However, I just saw a cover for Captain Marvel #1 coming out in March of next year with the same author as they have now.

I'm a little at a loss here. From what I've seen/understand the title sells horribly. It would seem to indicate that the fans want Carol back the way she was before they butchered her image with this whole Cap thing. I dunno, either way, you'd think if a book was selling so poorly that you axed the title then you wouldn't be giving it a relaunch 4 months down the road.

Anyone heard anything about this? Reasoning behind trying to shove this book down the public's throat? I know they want the name rights but you'd think that had been satisfied by now.

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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:13 pm

I can explain it to you but you won't like the answer: Marvel knows the book sucks, but they can't cancel it because of some stupidity from a year ago. Captain Marvel was essentially marvels response to bad press they were getting from a particular sub group of feminists complaining about the laundry list of things comics supposedly needed to attract a female audience... Unfortunately the group complaining was predominately made up of people who never had an interest in comics & unsurprisingly did not put their hand in to their pocket to pay for a copy of the book.

The end result was a book that wasn't very good & was pretty much unsellable as a mainstream property. But it’s also a property they don't DARE to cancel because if they do that will result in another major backlash since marvel sold people on the concept of this book as "the answer to the lack of female readership problem." To cancel it would result in a backlash & turn them into "Marvel: The company that hates all women." (the same thing happened with the cancellation of x-23)

Cancelling the book, then re-pitching it means that Marvel can still say they are publishing the book, but on a bi-monthly title (so they lose less money per year on a failing title) & the new issue 1 will bring in the first issue speculator dollars (I’m assuming by bi-monthly you mean once every two months & not twice a month).

If I had backed myself in to such a corner as a publisher & I was lacking for some major body parts, including balls, a spine, a heart & a brain that’s probably the artistic & business compromise I would make too. However since i do have those organs had i back myself into that corner, i'd have just up & cancelled the book, giving someone else a chance to pitch a title: But i'm one of those strange people who believes in the idea of a meritocracy. As far as i'm concerned if after 17 issues you've been under the company cancellation line for 15 of those issues, you aren't going to be given a second chance with the same character, with the same creative team 4 months from now.
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Thakowsaizmu » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:53 pm

Marvel should give the title to me. I'll do it for half of whatever their current "talent" is paid, and I am a (-n actual) Feminist (not that "second wave man hating" crap that bra burning "wymyn" purport to be) and I actually can write. So yeah, Marvel people who don't read random threads on RPG forums, hire me. Now!

Coming from a house hold of women I can and will state this: It's not that we don't read comic books, it's that current comic books aren't worth reading. I don't want to read about "boy trouble" and "periods", that's not attractive (I may be a little biased against the boy trouble part :wink: ) and that's not going to bring in girls. Neither is frills or princesses. Or shopping trips. Or the kitchen.

You know what brings in women readers? The same thing that brings in male readers: A decent story. Give me something worth reading. You know why I stopped reading Captain Marvel? Well, admittedly it was the art change (WTH?), but the reason I lost faith in it before that is because the writing was poor. It wasn't a comic book, it was a parody of a comic book. If I wanted to read that, I would read Deadpool :roll:. There was no substance, it was lame. Here you have a really cool character, and one of supposedly the most powerful Marvel heroes and you have her playing Dr Who or fist fighting dinosaurs for a random panel because "that's comics, ho ho". ARGH! RAR! I am going to cut this rant short right now and just go to bed :|
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:13 pm

Thakowsaizmu wrote:Marvel should give the title to me. I'll do it for half of whatever their current "talent" is paid, and I am a (-n actual) Feminist (not that "second wave man hating" crap that bra burning "wymyn" purport to be) and I actually can write.


I think we could all have done this better... Heck i don't think any of us could have done it worse. Heck someone writing this in an uninspired fashion, while sticking to the fundementals could have written this better.

This version has a Carol with no personality, a Captain Marvel with no personality or motivation. It doesn't tell a character driven story or a plot dfriven story & has no legitimate points of conflict. How exactly did MArvel think this was going to sell?
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Kyle » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:17 am

I have to admit, I'm kinda looking forward to the reboot. Pretty much anything Marvel cosmic gets at least a test run, and I apparently don't think the book is as bad as a few others do. Granted, I have been considering dropping the title for a few months now -- shoehorning the end to the previous story arc into a completely unnecessary crossover was more than a bit obnoxious -- but I also feel like DeConnick has begun to hit her stride on the book.

So, yeah, I'll give it a shot.

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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Vexous » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:47 am

Matt, that sounds like a huge nutjob conspiracy theory. Sadly, it makes perfect sense and is pretty much what I feared. Lack of a spine is one of the biggest problems with this world today, I just hoped a company like Marvel would have enough cash to fill in the gaps I guess. Common courtesy and a little respect are something I have no problems with, bending over backwards in fear to cow tow to the whims of some whack sect of haters is another thing altogether....

/sigh.

Thak, you go get your job, I'll read your book. If you remember Carol is smart, cute, and more importantly, confident enough not to have to overcompensate in almost every panel, you should do fine. You be as feminist as you want, just don't get stupid or cliché like the last run and its all good. For what its worth, I'm in your corner rootin'.

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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:24 am

Vexous wrote:Matt, that sounds like a huge nutjob conspiracy theory. Sadly, it makes perfect sense and is pretty much what I feared.


Yeah it kind of sounds like a soap opera plot, but alas most of Marvels business history does sound like a soap opera plot.

Vexous wrote:Lack of a spine is one of the biggest problems with this world today, I just hoped a company like Marvel would have enough cash to fill in the gaps I guess. Common courtesy and a little respect are something I have no problems with, bending over backwards in fear to cow tow to the whims of some whack sect of haters is another thing altogether....


Especially when those people (i prefer not to use the term haters), knew that they had no intention of ever purchasing the resulting product. So i agree with what Thak said, when she said:

You know what brings in women readers? The same thing that brings in male readers: A decent story. Give me something worth reading.


Vexous wrote:Thak, you go get your job, I'll read your book. If you remember Carol is smart, cute, and more importantly, confident enough not to have to overcompensate in almost every panel, you should do fine.


But don't forget to add in some plot... You wouldn't think it'd be necessary to say that, but this volume of the book proved us all wrong on that one.

Now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to get back to reading the MC2 version of Spider Girl... Because its well written & fun.
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Samson » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:25 pm

saint_matthew wrote:Now if you'll excuse me, i'm going to get back to reading the MC2 version of Spider Girl... Because its well written & fun.


That was such a fun book.
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:39 pm

At the moment, i'd much rather see Marvel make a Spectrum title.
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby greycrusader » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:37 pm

The previous Ms. Marvel series started strong, and had real promise. Carol Danvers had an actual goal in mind, and was exploring ways to accomplish it while fulfilling the superhero role. Then the title was hijacked by civil war/the initiative/the secret invasion/avengers cross-overs, and Ms. Marvel turned into a SHIELD-bot lacking purpose and personality. Big surprise when a totally derailed title got cancelled.

The current book...multiple art teams during a relatively short run, several which were NOT doing a mainstream superhero title; stories which lacked any major antagonists, then (again) sidetracked into The Big Crossover Events going in the Avengers titles.

Carol Danvers/Ms. Marvel is a potentially awesome character. She shined in the Avengers Assemble cartoon. Why can't she shine in the pen & paper MU?
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Kyle » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:45 pm

I think there's likely an answer a bit less nefarious than Marvel kowtowing to some insidious cabal of feminists. I think it would be difficult to make the argument either Marvel or DC publishes a lot of female friendly content. I also suspect that, similar to the [second hand] assertion that DC publishes comics for forty-five year olds, if you were to catch the people in charge of either company in a candid moment, they'd admit they give zero shits about the female market.

My guess regarding reasons for the reboot would be some combination of the following:

 - Branding. CAPTAIN MARVEL #1 hit shelves three months before the Marvel Now rebranding. A reboot with a new direction is an opportunity to slap that Marvel Now logo on the book.

 - A new first issue is a guaranteed sales bump. Hard to deny that CAPTAIN MARVEL didn't really find an audience. The first storyline was cumbersome at best, and almost no one liked the art. Comic readers are fairly unforgiving, not willing to give a series a second chance unless there's a major change. Or a new first issue.

 -  Marvel has been building towards a shift in how they market comics for a while now, with a focus on creators and stories over the characters themselves. We're going to see more and more new first issues every time a new writer takes over a book. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I've long thought that the HELLBOY model of individually numbered story lines with consecutively numbered trade collections is superior to traditional comics numbering, and this is a step in that direction.

 - A potential film. It was pretty recently that there was rumour of Katee Sackhoff being looked at to play Carol Danvers in the Marvel cinematic universe. Even if CAPTAIN MARVEL's sales weren't great, fans of the book are enthusiastic, and a lot of the better known Marvel women are tied up with Fox. The cast of 'The Avengers' was almost shamefully lacking in diversity, and even if Marvel the comics publisher doesn't care about women, Disney the corporate behemoth does, in so far as it can sell plastic crap to young girls.

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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby saint_matthew » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:06 am

greycrusader wrote:The previous Ms. Marvel series started strong, and had real promise. Carol Danvers had an actual goal in mind, and was exploring ways to accomplish it while fulfilling the superhero role. Then the title was hijacked by civil war/the initiative/the secret invasion/avengers cross-overs, and Ms. Marvel turned into a SHIELD-bot lacking purpose and personality. Big surprise when a totally derailed title got cancelled.


I know what you mean, it didn't last 2 whole story arcs before it got event hijacked. It quickly becames "the title formerly known as."

That was a real crying shame too. For the most part it had decent art & the writers could actually write, when they weren't being told to cow-tow to the MU event tide.

greycrusader wrote:The current book...multiple art teams during a relatively short run, several which were NOT doing a mainstream superhero title; stories which lacked any major antagonists, then (again) sidetracked into The Big Crossover Events going in the Avengers titles.


Add in to that that it was trying to tell a story that wasn't a superhero story, where the B plot was standing in for the A plot, based on a temporal conspiracy which had neither any supporting info, or any real plot progression & you've got a book thats DOA.

What they really needed was to Ron Marz the book: i of course refer to early Kyle Rayner as GL. Establish the character, humanise them, give them an actual drive, some actual personal challenges, possibly a secret identity... Make me care about the character & THEN hit us with the status quo altering event... Thats the basis of all fiction: The horse goes before the cart, not the other way round.

Kyle wrote:I think there's likely an answer a bit less nefarious than Marvel kowtowing to some insidious cabal of feminists.


Not a cabal, that sounds like they are organised. No, its just a group of loud insistent people who happen to have unfounded opinions. I know, its shocking to think those people exist in our hobby :lol:

Kyle wrote:I think it would be difficult to make the argument either Marvel or DC publishes a lot of female friendly content.


Depends how you define "female friendly." Again i'd be going back to what Thak said in that

You know what brings in women readers? The same thing that brings in male readers: A decent story. Give me something worth reading.


Thats how i define female friendly.

However if you mean "female friendly" in that the book specifically was made to pander only to a female audience then i'd point out that Marvel has been trying to do that since 1970 when they released Night Nurse, The Claws of the Cat, and Shanna the She-Devil... Its something they've been trying to do ever since & each time its failed. From X-23 adventures in babysitting, to Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane.

That kind of "girl friendly" doesn't work, because the type of girl that would attract by it is exactly the same type of girl who is put off by the fact its a superhero comic... An superheros are exactly what superhero comics are about (atleast in theory). An whats worse is it puts off the average readers both male & female who also have no interest in that kind of material.

Kyle wrote:- Branding. CAPTAIN MARVEL #1 hit shelves three months before the Marvel Now rebranding. A reboot with a new direction is an opportunity to slap that Marvel Now logo on the book.


God i hate that Logo... It just a hideous logo & makes the covers its on look just terrible. We've gone through decades of terrible cover page schticks & the Marvel NOW red base is one of the worst we've seen in a while... An yes i'm counting DC's recent hologram covers.

Kyle wrote:A potential film. It was pretty recently that there was rumour of Katee Sackhoff being looked at to play Carol Danvers in the Marvel cinematic universe.


I'm going to put this to bed right now: There is no intention at this point to make a Captain Marvel film. Marvel Studios has announced all the movies for this tier & Carol doesn't seem to be among it. Also that rumour was put to bed months ago as just a rumour.

So there will also NOT be a Black Panther film, nor a Wasp film, nor a black Widow film, nor a Wonder Woman film, nor a Supergirl Film, nor any other niche character based on gender or ethnicity. I'm sorry if that sounds churlish, but explaining that to people has become one of my recent pet peeves. All these rumours about potential movies Marvel & DC are making are just that; "unsubstantiated rumours" & they are given credence by being oft repeated kind of like the "DC pants initiative" nonsense.

Kyle wrote:Even if CAPTAIN MARVEL's sales weren't great, fans of the book are enthusiastic


An if enthusiasm was the same thing as profit then there would be no problem. Alas artists & writers want paying with actual money & when there is no demand for what you are supplying, you stop supplying it.

When instead of doing the reasonable thing you continue to supply it to an audience who is so small that no matter how enthusiastic cannot afford to support the book, you take money out of the pockets of other writers & artists. You also stop other characters from having a chance at also having a enthusiastic fan base, one potentially much larger than Captain Marvels.
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Kyle » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:10 am

saint_matthew wrote:
Kyle wrote:I think it would be difficult to make the argument either Marvel or DC publishes a lot of female friendly content.


Depends how you define "female friendly." Again i'd be going back to what Thak said in that  

You know what brings in women readers? The same thing that brings in male readers: A decent story. Give me something worth reading.


Thats how i define female friendly.

However if you mean "female friendly" in that the book specifically was made to pander only to a female audience then i'd point out that Marvel has been trying to do that since 1970 when they released Night Nurse, The Claws of the Cat, and Shanna the She-Devil... Its something they've been trying to do ever since & each time its failed. From X-23 adventures in babysitting, to Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane.

When I say female friendly, I suppose what I actually mean is not openly hostile to women.

Sadly too much of what's on the shelves can't pass that basic test. Superhero comics is a boys' club, and there are elements within the industry and within fandom very resistant to change.

All that nonsense about fake geek girls was within the last year. There was a recent interview with Mark Millar where he expressed disappointment that the script for 'Kick Ass 2' was changed so it no longer featured a gang rape that was in the comic.

saint_matthew wrote:
Kyle wrote:- Branding. CAPTAIN MARVEL #1 hit shelves three months before the Marvel Now rebranding. A reboot with a new direction is an opportunity to slap that Marvel Now logo on the book.


God i hate that Logo... It just a hideous logo & makes the covers its on look just terrible. We've gone through decades of terrible cover page schticks & the Marvel NOW red base is one of the worst we've seen in a while... An yes i'm counting DC's recent hologram covers.

The New 52 branding is worse. It's two years old now, and DC acts as though they need to keep fifty-two titles on the shelves because of it, regardless of quality or fan interest.

saint_matthew wrote:I'm going to put this to bed right now: There is no intention at this point to make a Captain Marvel film.

So there will also NOT be a Black Panther film, nor a Wasp film, nor a black Widow film, nor a Wonder Woman film, nor a Supergirl Film, nor any other niche character based on gender or ethnicity. I'm sorry if that sounds churlish, but explaining that to people has become one of my recent pet peeves. All these rumours about potential movies Marvel & DC are making are just that; "unsubstantiated rumours" & they are given credence by being oft repeated kind of like the "DC pants initiative" nonsense.

If you had told me Marvel Studios would be working on a Guardians of the Galaxy film a few years back, I would have been completely incredulous. If you really think a Captain Marvel film is off the table, I think you're underestimating Marvel Studios intent to build movie franchises.

There has to be a reason for Carol's recent push, and considering Marvel just canceled FEARLESS DEFENDERS, I doubt it's concern over having female led titles.

saint_matthew wrote:
Kyle wrote:Even if CAPTAIN MARVEL's sales weren't great, fans of the book are enthusiastic


An if enthusiasm was the same thing as profit then there would be no problem. Alas artists & writers want paying with actual money & when there is no demand for what you are supplying, you stop supplying it. 

When instead of doing the reasonable thing you continue to supply it to an audience who is so small that no matter how enthusiastic cannot afford to support the book, you take money out of the pockets of other writers & artists. You also stop other characters from having a chance at also having a enthusiastic fan base, one potentially much larger than Captain Marvels.

Didn't you mention the MC2 SPIDER-GIRL up thread?

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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby saint_matthew » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:07 am

Kyle wrote:When I say female friendly, I suppose what I actually mean is not openly hostile to women.


So essentially anything not written by someone whose last name is Miller.

Kyle wrote:Sadly too much of what's on the shelves can't pass that basic test.


Come on Kyle, we both know thats not true. It might not pass the "is this book not terrible test", but the overwhelming majority of comics from DC/Marvel/Image are not openly hostile to women. But you know what, sometimes its easier to put things into pure data form to demonstrate these things. Lets say DC puts out 52 books a month & Marvel puts out close to the same & Image puts out 12 books a month... Out of those 126 books per month how many classify as "much"? Would it be 1 book a month? Maybe 10 books a month? What are you counting as much?

Personally i think you'd be pushing it to find one such book a month from all three major publishers & not even that with any consistency.

Because this isn't one of those subjective things, this is one of those things that we can actually quantify objectively if we wanted to waste time doing so... In fact if you care to do so you & i can sit down and do a comic break down for an entire month of comics, just pick the month & make the pull list.

Kyle wrote:Superhero comics is a boys' club


Comics are not a boys club, see a boys club would specifically have a rule of "no girls allowed" where as comics has never had such a rule... Women have always been allowed both as creators & fans. Never mistake absense for exclusion, especially given that the absense itself is non-existant.

Kyle wrote:There was a recent interview with Mark Millar where he expressed disappointment that the script for 'Kick Ass 2' was changed so it no longer featured a gang rape that was in the comic.


/facepalm. Mark Millar is not comics... He's also not a representative of comics... By that logic comics are also Homophobic & Xenophobic due to the existance of two other well known writers, one whose last name is also Millar & another who shall remain unnamed but has a science fiction movie coming out soon.

I mean by that logic Mutants and Masterminds is sexist, homophobic, racist, xenophobic trash, because somewhere in the RPG industry there are people who possess all those traits either individually or in a single raging misanthrope. But we don't judge Green Ronin products on the basis of those people, so why would you judge all comics or the industry on the existance of Mark Millar.

We judge the contents of individual products based on the content of those products & those products alone.

Kyle wrote:If you had told me Marvel Studios would be working on a Guardians of the Galaxy film a few years back, I would have been completely incredulous. If you really think a Captain Marvel film is off the table, I think you're underestimating Marvel Studios intent to build movie franchises.


No, a Ms Marvel movie is currently off the table because its currently off the table: Marvel Studios has announced all the movies in this production tier & Captian/Ms Marvel is not among them. An the rumour that an actress had been selected to play Carol Danvers was just that, a rumour, one dismissed by the actor in question.

Unfortunately thats how it goes with the comic movie press: It combines the worst aspects of the comic press, with the worst aspect of the movie press. People who want somthing to be true say "they have to make movie A", at which point people repeat it till it becomes "they ARE making movie A" & then that becomes "wouldn't it be great if Actor A played the title role in movie A" & eventually thats repeated as "did you hear that actor A has confirmed." This of course then leads to an official press release or comment by someone saying this is not so & suddenly the news cycle is "Movie A does not exist because of [sexism/racism/some other ism]."

Its literally the same thing that happened with the DC pants ininiative, in which a lot of people threw a hissy-fit when DC did not follow through on a promise no one at DC ever made, to put ever female DC character into pants.

This is sometimes refered to as "chasing a woozle." Taken from the Winnie the Pooh story, in which Winnie the Pooh & Piglet find some foot prints, start following them, thinking them to be woozle tracks. Eventually they find the tracks lead up with other tracks & now they must be on the path of many woozles, an entire herd... After an entire afternoon of following these tracks they get hungry, go home & tell christopher robin about there adventure. He laughs at them & explains they were following there own tracks & everytime they crossed there own path, the "herd of woozles" appeared to get bigger.

Kyle wrote:There has to be a reason for Carol's recent push,


Thats because Hickman had plans to use her for Infinity & in his future Avengers stuff.

Kyle wrote:and considering Marvel just canceled FEARLESS DEFENDERS, I doubt it's concern over having female led titles.


Except they didn't make a huge fuss over Fearless Defenders like they did with Captain Marvel. It also has the added advantage of not having a female creative team which people could manufacture into news when they are no longer employed.

Kyle wrote:Didn't you mention the MC2 SPIDER-GIRL up thread?


I did, the difference being that it was saved from cancellation for a time by fans who were not only enthusiastic, but who also made it profitable at a grass roots level. Where as Captain Marvel has never been popular & there has never been enough people interested in it to save it: Practically its entire life has been beneath the cancellation line.

An yet Spectrum just can't seem to get any love.
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Re: Captain Marvel#1.......Again???

Postby Darrin Kelley » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:38 am

I've read the other book that DeConnick has written. The reboot of Ghost, by Dark Horse.

I think she's a terrible writer.


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