Gotham TV Series

Discuss anything vaguely M&M related here, such as comics, movies, and action figures.
User avatar
Arkrite
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 11094
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: The Frozen North

Gotham TV Series

Postby Arkrite » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:12 am

I saw this article this morning:
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/09/25/g ... -tv-series

No surprise that DC would want to jump on the live TV train in the hopes of getting some money too but this line just made me shake my head.

The series will focus on a young Detective James Gordon and "the villains that made Gotham famous." Bruno Heller (Rome, The Mentalist) is writing the Commissioner Gordon, which will presumably launch during the 2014-2015 TV season. Gotham will take place before Gordon meets Batman, who will not be a part of the series.


So, yeah... a Batman TV series with no Batman.
*facepalm*

To be fair I think the concept had a lot of merit with Batman and the bat-family being rarely seen background characters but to cut them out completely?
I'm not optimistic.

Shock
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 12051
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Shock » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:21 am

Soooo.... it's a cop show? Way to think outside the box DC!

User avatar
The_Watchman
Mastermind
Mastermind
Posts: 2300
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:38 pm

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby The_Watchman » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:33 am

Gotham Central was excellent but it was also really heavily invested in the comic book history (hence why it's been completely erased by nu52). Birds of Prey tried to adapt a similar mythology-heavy series and it didn't work very well for them. Now the Gotham TV series could still be cool but there are so damn many police procedurals but I just don't see DC doing anything to make it work. One of the best elements of Gotham Central was that it took a very colorful and vibrant world and showed just how dark and dangerous it can be when you're not wearing a costume. Something as silly as a freeze gun becomes a deadly and gruesome weapon when you see what it does to people without thermal bat-underwear or bat warmers. A goofy Flash villain becomes a disgusting psychopathic scientist. It works because we're used to seeing that colorful, fun side. Most of that is lost when all you're pulling from is grim and gritty down to earth stories.
"This is all your fault! You shouldn't have taken that cat! You don't teleport into strange metal places and steal pets!"
Builds

User avatar
Mr Mole
Firebrand
Firebrand
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 9:33 am
Location: Washington (the state, not the district)

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Mr Mole » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:42 am

So... It's gonna be like what Smallville (the television show) would've been without Clark Kent... Except it's Gotham, without Bruce Wayne/Batman. Let's just say I'm skeptical about this being a good idea. :|

User avatar
Thakowsaizmu
Zealot
Zealot
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 12:28 am
Contact:

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Thakowsaizmu » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:03 am

Sweet! Another DC show I won't be watching! Keep up the great work, guys!
♀♥♀
百年如石、一點如漆

JetstreamGW
Daredevil
Daredevil
Posts: 733
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:38 pm

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby JetstreamGW » Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:31 pm

I see people saying this is a bad idea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham_Central

And yet I remember this being pretty popular for a while.

And those kinds of shows are way more popular than comics of that nature are.

User avatar
The_Watchman
Mastermind
Mastermind
Posts: 2300
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:38 pm

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby The_Watchman » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:00 pm

JetstreamGW wrote:I see people saying this is a bad idea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham_Central

And yet I remember this being pretty popular for a while.

And those kinds of shows are way more popular than comics of that nature are.


That's what I was talking about above. There are just a lot of concerns I have (not that I won't at least watch the first couple episodes if it does end up getting on the air).

One is that it's not Gotham Central, it's Gordon's origin. We already had a Gordon origin story in Batman Begins. Gotham Central was fantastic in large part because it was built around Batman and his universe existing. The pressure of being a cop in a world in which Batman is necessary is just really compelling. If the cops are solving all the issues with the freaks, why would Batman even need to exist?

Second, it does not seem like DC really "gets" their characters in live action adaptations. DC seems ashamed of their past these days and Gotham Central was definitely not built on that mindset. Brubaker and Rucka absolutely embrace the depths of history and continuity and find ways to twist things to shed new light on it. Brubaker and Rucka not being involved is cause for concern. This show, as described, is not set in Batman's world. It's a police procedural that happens to share some names with Batman characters and may have some bizarre villains. It could be cool, but it does not sound like anything more than another attempt to play catch-up with Marvel without bothering to understand why Marvel has been successful.

Finally, there are just an absurd number of police procedural shows. It's a popular genre but Gotham will also be fighting against shows that literally have the most viewers in the world. If it ends up against CSI or NCIS then it's going to be a bloodbath. It just seems like the show as they're describing it now is taking Smallville and combining it with CSI. I don't imagine DC/WB is going to approve of a truly gritty show like Homicide or a nuanced, disturbing drama like the Wire or the Shield. It seems like the classic Venn diagram problem. The audience for people that like procedurals AND superheroes is going to be smaller than the audience for each individually.

Edit: It's also worth noting that Gotham Central was a commercial failure and if there's one thing the nu52 is based on, it's that blindly chasing money always comes before critical success.
"This is all your fault! You shouldn't have taken that cat! You don't teleport into strange metal places and steal pets!"
Builds

User avatar
Mr Mole
Firebrand
Firebrand
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 9:33 am
Location: Washington (the state, not the district)

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Mr Mole » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:41 pm

The Watchman spelled out quite clearly what my thinking on the subject is. I'm not saying it can't be done... But it seems the people behind this series are painting themselves into a corner.

User avatar
saint_matthew
Overlord
Overlord
Posts: 4381
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby saint_matthew » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:36 pm

This has been whats been destroying comic books for the last couple of years: "Hey guys, this superhero thing is popular with the geeks, what can we take out of it so it could be presented to people who aren't geeks, but would like to pretend they are?"

It starts out with Smallville, a Superman series without superman in it & ends up at Gotham, a Batman series that includes no super-hero comic book elements whatsoever. Thanks WB, but if i want to watch a police procedual drama about creepy characters who act like bottom feeding sociopaths, i'll watch "Law & Order: SVU".

Or to dumb it down for the TV execs: A Batman series without Batman... Whats the point?
“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”
-Isaac Asimov

User avatar
The_Watchman
Mastermind
Mastermind
Posts: 2300
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:38 pm

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby The_Watchman » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:24 am

saint_matthew wrote:Or to dumb it down for the TV execs: A Batman series without Batman... Whats the point?


Exactly. Hopefully they'll come to their senses. In Gotham Central, Batman showed up in maybe a page total per storyline but his shadow hung over everything. The way this show is pitched, I can't help but expect that eventually costumed vigilantes will show up but just like Smallville, they'll be in stories obviously intended for Batman but will be Green Arrow or some such. Especially if Arrow and Gotham are both on the air at the same time.

Having the Batman family available just seems to open up so many avenues for stories. Maybe Gordon knows Bruce's identity or if they dig a bit deeper into the mythos, have Maggie Sawyer or Renee Montoya dating Kate Kane and have to deal with her being Batwoman. It opens up the Question for use. It allows for true victories to be that much more significant when the cops are usually dependent on Batman (especially if they hate that dependence).

It doesn't seem like anything is set in stone yet so hopefully the finished product will show more thought.
"This is all your fault! You shouldn't have taken that cat! You don't teleport into strange metal places and steal pets!"
Builds

User avatar
Kyle
Sidekick
Sidekick
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:38 pm
Location: Canada, eh?

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Kyle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:02 am

My biggest gripe about GOTHAM CENTRAL was that there was too much Batman. I was interested in gritty crime drama and the lives of these folks who live in this absolutely insane city and how they deal. Having Batman show up and solve all their problems every storyline seemed to cheapen the whole thing.

Batman is almost always the least interesting aspect of Batman stories.

So I'm at least tentatively interested in this series.

User avatar
The_Watchman
Mastermind
Mastermind
Posts: 2300
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:38 pm

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby The_Watchman » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:22 am

Kyle wrote:My biggest gripe about GOTHAM CENTRAL was that there was too much Batman. I was interested in gritty crime drama and the lives of these folks who live in this absolutely insane city and how they deal. Having Batman show up and solve all their problems every storyline seemed to cheapen the whole thing.


I felt like it was the exact opposite. Batman only solved the issue of the supervillain being free as one of the rules of the world of Gotham City is that Batman is the only one who can truly deal with the freaks. But he didn't solve their real problems. Driver lost his partner to Mr. Freeze and a teenage girl died. Renee had her life almost completely destroyed. Nora lost her husband and her hand. To me, the point of Gotham Central was to show that what seems colorful and exciting when you see it from Batman's perspective is dark and horrifying when you're just an ordinary person on the street. Batman was necessary but a lot of the characters, quite justifiably, questioned whether he was truly good or just a necessary evil. If the freaks predate Batman, then logically the series will be a constant spiral toward the point that only Batman can save Gotham or else it will invalidate the necessity of the Batman.

Batman doesn't need to show up often but he is intrinsically tied in with Commissioner Gordon. One of my favorite elements of Gotham Central was that it didn't feature Gordon and thus had no character that had a solid, good relationship with Batman. The head of MCU was a woman who had previously called even Superman out on vigilante behavior so you knew she had issues with Batman.

But there's been a lot of negativity thrown here so let's change it up a bit. Assuming the show is more Gotham Central than Gordon Begins, what characters would you like to see and who would play them?
"This is all your fault! You shouldn't have taken that cat! You don't teleport into strange metal places and steal pets!"
Builds

User avatar
Kyle
Sidekick
Sidekick
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:38 pm
Location: Canada, eh?

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Kyle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:09 am

The_Watchman wrote:I felt like it was the exact opposite. Batman only solved the issue of the supervillain being free as one of the rules of the world of Gotham City is that Batman is the only one who can truly deal with the freaks. But he didn't solve their real problems. Driver lost his partner to Mr. Freeze and a teenage girl died. Renee had her life almost completely destroyed. Nora lost her husband and her hand. To me, the point of Gotham Central was to show that what seems colorful and exciting when you see it from Batman's perspective is dark and horrifying when you're just an ordinary person on the street. Batman was necessary but a lot of the characters, quite justifiably, questioned whether he was truly good or just a necessary evil. If the freaks predate Batman, then logically the series will be a constant spiral toward the point that only Batman can save Gotham or else it will invalidate the necessity of the Batman.

That's fair, though I would argue that Gotham was dark and horrifying in the rest of the Batbooks as well. The War Games crossover happened during that period; Black Mask killed Stephanie Brown with an electric drill. Sure, that got retconned a few years later, but it didn't make being Batman's teenaged sidekick look like a fun time.

Also, the notion that only Batman can deal with Gotham's crazies frustrates me. In GOTHAM CENTRAL, they had the Joker in lock-up after he went on a spree killing public officials, and the only reason he escaped is because one of the lieutenants uncuffed him so he could torture him for information and was then overpowered. Ridiculous. I don't think it robs anything from Batman to say that a physically fit police officer should be able to hold his own against a skinny guy in clown make-up.

User avatar
Arkrite
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 11094
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Arkrite » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:21 am

Ah, but if one police officer could easily handle a super villain then what need would they have for Batman?
I mean, they have hundreds of police officers and if even one of them was capable of shooting/beating up the baddies then there would be no need for Batman.

Thus the bad guys have to be more than the normal people can handle simple to give a reason for Batman's continued existence.

Otherwise Bruce would probably just donate a bunch of money to the police force and spend more time on the beach.

User avatar
Kyle
Sidekick
Sidekick
Posts: 358
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:38 pm
Location: Canada, eh?

Re: Gotham TV Series

Postby Kyle » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:41 am

If the police can't handle guys like the Riddler or the Penguin, then what the hell are they doing? And I say that as someone who really likes the Riddler.

Batman works as a character who can use methods, go places and access technology that the police cannot, but if he and his gaggle of sidekicks are the only competent law enforcement in the city, then why even have a police force?

GOTHAM CENTRAL was one of my favourite books when it was coming out, but I would have enjoyed it a lot more if the MCU occasionally got a solid win without Batman's help. This ties into the other discussion of how Didio's claimed that no Gotham heroes get to have happy lives; it might make for interesting drama to see broken people get the crap kicked out of them constantly, but there's only so much of that which a person can absorb before it's just a depressing slog.


Return to “Sidekicks Lounge”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests