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[Green] Arrow TV Series

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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby kenseido » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:56 am

I guess the problem comes down to your definition of "worked."

Did Smallville work? Ten seasons, longest running (by episode count) American science fiction series?

Now was it Superman?

No.

Not even close.

Could Arrow end up the same way? Yes. The fact that it doesn't appeal to "true" Green Arrow fans may be a good thing, at least as far as the series goes. Means for potentially broader appeal. As for being Batman-esque, didn't Green Arrow approach that in the Longbow Hunters mini-series?

Young Justice works because the cost is lower, so the ratings expectations are lower. Put it on a major network, in prime time, forget it. Wouldn't last a season.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby saint_matthew » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:26 am

kenseido wrote:I guess the problem comes down to your definition of "worked."

Did Smallville work? Ten seasons, longest running (by episode count) American science fiction series?


Smallville didn't work. The only reason it existed for 10 seasons was because there was a large contigent of twilight mums, waiting with bated breath for Tom Welling to take his shirt off.

I mean there is a reason why Welling was in the 2009 Teen Choice Awards, he received the award for Choice TV Actor — Action Adventure. He was also included in TV Guide's list of "TV's Sexiest Crime Fighters".

Trust me, the people showing up for the plot, were seriously outnumbered by the people coming for the shirtless, buff abs.

kenseido wrote:As for being Batman-esque, didn't Green Arrow approach that in the Longbow Hunters mini-series?


Nope. I own Longbow Hunter mini series, it has nothing in common with this TV show

kenseido wrote:Young Justice works because the cost is lower, so the ratings expectations are lower. Put it on a major network, in prime time, forget it. Wouldn't last a season.


Except we aren't talking about ratings. Ratings say nothing about the quality of a tv show. The kind of people who predominately have a nielsen box in there house are the kind of people who consider the jersey shore to be a documentary.

We are talking baout quality: Young Justice has it & it should be our baseline starting point, not our end goal. An honestly we aren't talking about arrow here, we are talking about comic book tv shows & movies in general... The continued need to pitch every single property as if it were Batman... ITs kind of like what Science Fiction would be like if the pitch for literally ever sci-fi show was Star Trek. It doesn't mattwer how much you love Star Trek, rehashing it 60 times is still just paddling in the shallow end of the genre.

At some point a Network is going to do something more "classical" with a superhero pitch & its going to become its periods "harry potter." An funny thing is, that no network rehashing the same product is going to discover it. I know the urge is to play it safe & create unassuming crap, but its an urge networks need to step beyond if our prefered genre is ever to ride without the training wheels.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby kenseido » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:47 am

saint_matthew wrote:Smallville didn't work. The only reason it existed for 10 seasons was because there was a large contigent of twilight mums, waiting with bated breath for Tom Welling to take his shirt off.


Again, it comes down to your definition of "worked." I am sure the most of the TV executives, producers, actors, and crew who were employed for ten years of the show's run could care less why people watched. They watched and people got paid.

saint_matthew wrote:Nope. I own Longbow Hunter mini series, it has nothing in common with this TV show


I didn't ask if Longbow Hunters was anything like the show, I asked if Green Arrow took a more Batman like approach in Longbow Hunters, which was one of the early complaints in the thread.

saint_matthew wrote:Except we aren't talking about ratings. Ratings say nothing about the quality of a tv show.


Except, and here is the really important part, tv executives couldn't care less about the "quality" of a show, as long as the ratings are high enough to make a profit. They are NEVER going to change a show to match the "comic book vision" of the fans - which changes from generation to generation mind you - at the expense of profits.

I admit, that my experience with Green Arrow is limited to JLU, Smallville, and a few of my older brother's comics I got to read while growing up. So I can't tell you anything about how Arrow compares to Green Arrow in the comics. I bet most tv exec involved with the show can't do that either. Is that bad? To the diehard Green Arrow fans, yes. To the general public who only knows Green Arrow as the Robin Hood looking superhero with the boxing glove arrow? Not so much. Since the latter is a larger group and more profitable for them, they are going to try and cater to them.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby saint_matthew » Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:15 am

kenseido wrote:I didn't ask if Longbow Hunters was anything like the show, I asked if Green Arrow took a more Batman like approach in Longbow Hunters, which was one of the early complaints in the thread.


Not really.

kenseido wrote:Except, and here is the really important part, tv executives couldn't care less about the "quality" of a show, as long as the ratings are high enough to make a profit. They are NEVER going to change a show to match the "comic book vision" of the fans - which changes from generation to generation mind you - at the expense of profits.


Except that a good tv show that doesn't disregard its primary audience is better then one that does disregards it. After all, what gets better ratings: A show that doesn't hit its stirde with either comic book fans, or the larger population at large, or one that hits both audiences. Its going to be the one that hits both audiences.

kenseido wrote:To the diehard Green Arrow fans, yes.


Mate, this has nothing to do with die hard green arrow fans... Frankly chances are very good that this will get cancelled by episode 12... if it gets that far & no one will morn its loss. What this is about is the way that networks dumb down every single super hero character into Batman. It doesn't matter who the character is it instantly becomes batman as soon as it enters the ear, or leaves the mouth of a TV exec.

The fact that this time round its Green Arrow doesn't make a difference. Last time it was Wonder Woman an they already said they want to try it again, this time called "Amazon." No i'm not kidding, i honestly couldn't make this nonsense up if i tried.

kenseido wrote:To the general public who only knows Green Arrow as the Robin Hood looking superhero with the boxing glove arrow? Not so much. Since the latter is a larger group and more profitable for them, they are going to try and cater to them.


Sure & to the general public Chuck is something you do after drinking to much on a friday night. Harry Potter is a funny way of calling someone a pot head & Skywalker is a now defunct brand of skylight. The "the general public is ignorant" excuse just doesn't cut it... Never has, never will.

An frankly the "ignorant public" excuse is exactly the same one hollywoods been pulling out whenever what they mean to say is "lets just dust off some old property & put the number 2 on the title & call it a day," a horrible trend also picked up by television network.

Time that we take the training wheels off of the genre & do something that isn't just another derivative "make this character Batman" show. There is just so much one could do with the genre.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby kenseido » Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:29 am

As long as advertising rates are linked to ratings and not critic reviews, then tv execs are going to do whatever works to get people to watch the shows. That's the reality. In the end, the public at large decides what is on TV and what movies are produced in the long term.

Maybe it will get cancelled before the end of the season. Maybe it will last ten. I only watched one episode of Smallville in the first season and swore it wouldn't last. I was (and still am not) in the target demographic.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby Mortium » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:11 pm

As much as I bitch about the stupidity of the American TV audience (i.e. The Voice, Scare Tactics, Honey Boo Boo, etc), the critics are even worse.

All we can do is support half decent SciFi/Fantasy/Comic Book shows and movies, and hope that the execs get a clue, and start giving us more. And when they do, they loosen the purse strings to make the series and movies we have dreamed of.

Granted, we've also seen what happens when fanboys make big-budget movies. See that horrid abomination known as The Dungeons & Dragons movie.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby saint_matthew » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:28 pm

Mortium wrote:Granted, we've also seen what happens when fanboys make big-budget movies. See that horrid abomination known as The Dungeons & Dragons movie.


I know right. Did you see the newest one? Its possibly the wrost one of the lot.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby Mr Mole » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:33 pm

Mortium wrote:As much as I bitch about the stupidity of the American TV audience (i.e. The Voice, Scare Tactics, Honey Boo Boo, etc), the critics are even worse.

Being a small part of the "American TV audience" you mentioned, I do have to say I've seen total of a bout 5 minutes of The Voice, I've never watched Scare Tactics, and I'd never before even heard of Honey Boo Boo.

I did google Honey Boo Boo, however, to see what you were talking about... And I don't really have words to describe how I feel about what I found... "Repulsed" would be a good start, I think. :shock:

Apparently, I'm not an average American. Well, sure, I'm a heterosexual, white male in his late 30s, average height and a bit overweight, with a high school education... But my taste in entertainment doesn't seem to match up well with the rest of the nation. If it did, Farscape wouldn't have been cancelled so abruptly and Firefly would have gone on for much more than one season.

I watched two, full episodes of Lost plus maybe an hour or two total of odds and ends here and there. I saw the first episode, which seemed semi-interesting, but never really got into the show... And I watched the last episode, at which point I was so glad I hadn't spent any more time watching the show than I had, 'cause that would've been a huge letdown.

I spent years going to work and having people talk about American Idol... And I'd just smile politely and say "I dunno... I didn't see it..."

I'm a comic book geek. I'm a superhero fanboy. I was not disappointed by Avengers, but would've loved to have seen more character development. I really enjoyed Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. I love Young Justice... When they bother airing the new episodes, anyway. I'm reasonably entertained by Green Lantern, although the CGI reminds me a bit too much of claymation. I watched every episode of Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited... And I bought all the DVDs.

Is Arrow going to last more than one season? Is it even going to last that long? Not from what I've seen so far, but I've been surprised before... And I'm really not that emotionally invested in the show for it to matter over much. It's not "Green Arrow." It's barely even based on the beloved comic book character I grew up with.

On the whole, American TV does suck... At least to some of us who, it seems, are a minority within the majority.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby Arthur Eld » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:02 am

I liked the second episode of Arrow, a little bit moreso than the first one. Kelly Hu is cool (I've been a fan of hers since In Case of Emergency) as China White, although the bit with her speaking Chinese to Ollie was kind of odd (ok, he can speak it, but how could she know that? Unless she just wanted to declare her presence for whatever reason).

Its not a terrible show, and I can definitely see it getting better. It is very Batman-esque, to be sure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby saint_matthew » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:19 am

Arthur Eld wrote:I liked the second episode of Arrow, a little bit moreso than the first one.


I know, right: He only killed 9 people this time... He's improving. :lol:

At least they tried to develop his character a little in this one.
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby Mortium » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:26 pm

Mr Mole wrote: I'm reasonably entertained by Green Lantern, although the CGI reminds me a bit too much of claymation.


See this right here. I keep having this arguement at Fantom Comics on NCBD with some of the guys down there. I'm NOT a fan of CGI animation. Claymation is a good descriptor. Plastic would be another. On the other hand, they do have a point that the animators only need to make the constructs once and copy/paste from scene to scene...
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby Mortium » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:28 pm

saint_matthew wrote:At least they tried to develop his character a little in this one.


you're going to make me keep repeating myself about early episodes of any series and the character development, aren't you?
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:35 am

Mortium wrote:
saint_matthew wrote:At least they tried to develop his character a little in this one.


you're going to make me keep repeating myself about early episodes of any series and the character development, aren't you?


Yes, for i am the puppet master & you dance upon strings unseen. :twisted: Mwahahahhahahahahaha

Dance my little puppets dance, for today i become "The Toy-Master" Mwahahahahahahahahaha.

All study & no play make Matthew go something something. :roll:
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby Cinder » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:23 pm

I want to note that I watched the first episode and just got on this thread. So excuse me if, in my scanning, I missed something.

saint_matthew,

As I read, I was trying to get a handle on what your criticism is, specifically.

Is your main complaint the quality of this show particularly or generally the attempts to make Arrow too gritty (i.e. Batman-like)? I think that it is some portion of both.

There is strong precedent for making Ollie gritty, IMO. Perhaps the same catch-all characterization of what is being done to all heroes (i.e. making them Batman-like) does not as readily apply to a character like Green Arrow. Which is to say a character that had a gritty makeover a long time ago which changed the character's perception greatly. . .

saint_matthew wrote:[The] "comic book vision" of . . . fans . . . changes from generation to generation


saint_matthew wrote: I own [the] Longbow Hunter mini series, it has nothing in common with this TV show


I was pretty young when the longbow hunters came out. (I was probably too young to read it.) Frankly, it changed the way that Green Arrow was portrayed in my mind. I would be willing to bet I am not alone in that.

So to say that this show and Longbow have nothing in common is not entirely accurate in my opinion. I may need to look at the books again, but then again you may need to look at the books again, because I seem to remember them differently. The CW Arrow’s hood is a modernized version of the one that came into vogue because of its use in Longbow Hunters. Previously, he wore, almost exclusively, the Robin Hood-style hat. Also the theme of this series is much like the Longbow Hunters. Previously, Ollie had been mostly portrayed as an Errol Flynn type and/or a class warrior. In that book he was portrayed as a flawed man who was seeking vengeance, often in the form of murder, for the torture, (implied) rape and attempted murder of his wife. Two of the story’s main features are drugs and a serial killer.

Not that it is an assurance of quality, but that series was nominated for an Eisner.

Also, it was grittier than most Batman stories that I remember reading at the time. (it came out a few months before The Killing Joke).

So the argument can be made that Grell made Ollie more like the current popular vision of Batman than Batman was at the time (~1987).

On the idea of the oft referenced Lycra, I would say that it may seem to you that they are “trying to make everything like Batman.” (paraphrasing) However, I would say that what they are actually trying to do is make a show that doesn’t get laughed at for being corny and five-colored. Sorry, but IMO, that stuff really only works in comedies now.

Just my two cents, I happily anticipate the usual backlash that comes with someone disagreeing with you. :D
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Re: [Green] Arrow TV Series

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:50 pm

Cinder wrote:As I read, I was trying to get a handle on what your criticism is, specifically.

Is your main complaint the quality of this show particularly or generally the attempts to make Arrow too gritty (i.e. Batman-like)? I think that it is some portion of both.


Wow, i thought i'd made my dislike of the Arrow TV show clear. It was dull, disinteresting & just down right boring... Along with the apparent body count he was leaving behind.

Further conversation lead to the discussion of DC/WB/Everyone else trying to turn every single super hero property in Batman, regardless of it not being Batman. This is indicative of a professional culture, that is still only dipping there toe in the kiddy pool of the genre.

Like i said: Its great if you love Star Trek, but could you imagine televised Science Fiction if literally every single Sci-Fi show was just a rehash of Star Trek. Every single show was about a crew of humans aboard a huge star ship, with a warp drive, teleporter, tractor beam, phasers, in a universe exactly identical to star trek, where even the episode formula was identical. This is essentially what has happened to the Super Hero/Comic Book genre on TV & Movies in recent years.

That of course has little to do with Arrow, other then the fact that he is the newest in a long line of "make it Batman" series.

Cinder wrote:So to say that this show and Longbow have nothing in common is not entirely accurate in my opinion. I may need to look at the books again, but then again you may need to look at the books again, because I seem to remember them differently.


You may want to go reread it then. Ollie does not run round killing people for no reason. Where as the WB/GA apparently killed 9 people in that last episode alone. Likewise, the two plots are nothing alike. In fact outside of the fact that both have an Archer in them, who wears green, there is very little if anything in common.

Cinder wrote:Not that it is an assurance of quality, but that series was nominated for an Eisner.


I always hated that logic when people use to say "it must be good it was nominated for an Eisner." So you are right in that its no assurance of quality.

Cinder wrote:On the idea of the oft referenced Lycra, I would say that it may seem to you that they are “trying to make everything like Batman.” (paraphrasing) However, I would say that what they are actually trying to do is make a show that doesn’t get laughed at for being corny and five-colored. Sorry, but IMO, that stuff really only works in comedies now.


Then i'm happy to tell you that you'd be wrong. Lycra is not amusing & can be used to great effect. Its kind of like saying "a science fiction series where the aliens are puppets & costumes made by Jim Henson? That'll look childish." An yet Farscape looked far from childish.

The fact is that just because people designed with lycra poorly in the past, that isn't a flaw of lycra, but a lack of talent of the designers. Here is a great example of prime use of the most magical of stretchy material http://crystalcosfx.deviantart.com/art/ ... 73837&qo=9 . There is nothing silly about Lycra if & when its properly used. Instead every single movie becomes obsessed with textured materials, molded plastic & armour plating (see also new Superman movie costume).

You want to know what looks silly? Seeing an actor in a Batman suit have to waddle around because the molded plastic of the costume makes it nearly impossible to move in.
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