A Better Shield...

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ronyon
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A Better Shield...

Postby ronyon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:55 pm

A Permanent, Innate Create, Limited to making "a shield".
Basically, a portable piece of Cover/Concealment.
Maybe throw in Evasion.
Any reason to not allow this as Equipment?

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Greyman
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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby Greyman » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:44 pm

It would be campaign dependent, but this seems Device worthy to me on the basis of being exotic technology.

How would it work? Some sort of gel under compression, quick setting into a steel-hard foam on expansion? Memory metal expanding from a tight pellet into a thin(but tough) disk?

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby ronyon » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:01 am

None of the above, it would just be a shield, one big enough to offer portable Cover.
I don't know of another way to buy Cover, other than Creating it. I see this as a riot shield. I don't care for the way shields are presented in the equipment section of the DCA book, so I am trying for an equipment level alternative.

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby Stigger » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:14 am

Think I'd just do it as a 1 point feature and call it done myself... maybe limit it to a single direction if that matters in your games.

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby Fists of Dorn » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:09 am

Create is not the way to go, because that means that the character is capable of creating new shields any ol' time. Instead you would be better off just designing the shield using the effects you want it to have (Enhanced Trait: Dodge/Parry, Protection, Impervious applied to the character's Toughness, etc.) and then playing the game with the understanding that average-sized shields provide partial cover and shields like tower/riot shields provide total cover. You don't pay for the ability to have cover because that would hold true for any object of a similar size held by the character.

Just remember that the examples in the equipment section are just that, examples. Feel free to design whatever makes sense for the game you are running/playing in and call it a shield. In fantasy settings, anything above what the group/GM declares is possible for the basic shield is bought as a device instead of equipment (i.e. magically enchanted shields and the like are devices).




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Arthur Eld
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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby Arthur Eld » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:33 am

I agree with Fists. When building a car with ep, you don't pay for Create (limited to cars), Permanent, Innate, Subtle, you build the effects. If someone wants to get out of that car and take cover behind it while getting shot at, they don't need to have spent any points for the benefits of cover.

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Greyman
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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby Greyman » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:06 pm

The providence of cover would be a Feature; one that could also on occasion be a nuisance (a complication source).

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby ronyon » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:43 pm

I tend to just buy anything I want the character to have, to avoid arguments. Comes fr too much Hero sytem in my youth!
Seems like Feature is the way go. Maybe with a Complication for a full tower shield.
Anything smaller would be unlikely to cause problems, in your typical setting.
Thanks for the feed back, just what I needed!

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby Monolith » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:11 pm

I don't care for the idea of just making cover a feature. The idea of cover is that something is providing you either a +2 or a +5 defense, so if you're being missed by the 1-5 the cover is providing the cover should be getting hit in place of you. The boxes, or vehicle, or whatever you're partially or fully hiding behind should be getting shot to pieces. This means in many cases cover is temporary and that it should have some type of toughness of its own.

Plus, just from a game balance perspective, how fair is giving someone +2 dodge and +2 parry for 1 point, let alone +5 dodge and parry? If a player turned in a character sheet with +5 dodge, +5 parry for 1 point you'd think they were crazy as that's 10 points of ability and there's no way it should cost 1 point.

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby danelsan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:34 pm

The boxes, or vehicle, or whatever you're partially or fully hiding behind should be getting shot to pieces


There is no reason for that to be any less true of the shield, though.

If an attack misses because of the cover bonuses, it would logically hit the shield in a "decisive" manner and it is quite likely your shield will break/melt/turn to dust/atomize/whatever, thus depriving you of any other benefits it conferred while giving you no Hero Points, just like any other piece of equipment
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ronyon
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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby ronyon » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:40 pm

By the time I Flawed one Rank of Create into a Power that could only make one shield ever, it would only cost one point anyway, and it might even give me some other bonus as well.

But such objections are why I buy everything I want my character to have instead of relying on fiat.

Using cover is a winning strategy no matter where it comes from.
Even in RL, hiding behind something is a good way to survive.
A force field belt would be "better" but doesn't fit my character concept.
Maybe Create is just too damn good, but as long as it is allowed, Cover and Concealment are there for the taking.

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby danelsan » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:37 pm

Personally, I do think Create is too powerful for the cost. I once house-ruled it to 4PP/Rank without much complaints, but my group ended up settling on 3PP/rank. None of the current characters has Create, though, so it is largely un-playtested at that cost
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JDRook
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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby JDRook » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:20 pm

One of my favourite entries from the Power Profiles is Hidden Cover from the Illusions chapter. The idea is that your PC "finds cover" (which is kind of a mini-Edit Scene effect) and makes it invisible. It's built as Impervious Protection with Evasion 2 (cover provided vs AoE attacks), Fades (wearing down cover with each shot) and Subtle (DC20 makes out the edges of cover and the attacker can compensate). Drop Fades and Subtle and I don't see why that wouldn't work just as well for a shield.
Sorry, I can't hear your argument for realism over the sound of my eye beams. :P

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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby AlanGunhouse » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:20 am

I am wondering why shields do not have a damage listing, the shield bash is a common maneuver well known in history.

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JDRook
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Re: A Better Shield...

Postby JDRook » Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:17 pm

AlanGunhouse wrote:I am wondering why shields do not have a damage listing, the shield bash is a common maneuver well known in history.

The same reason swords don't have a built-in "parry" bonus, even though blocking attacks with swords is at least as common as attacking with a shield. The primary purpose, or central Effect, of a shield is defense. That said, there are a few ways to attack with a shield, all of which cost additional points.

You can easily make an "attack mode" for a shield with an Alternate Effect for 1p, although that would mean you couldn't get the defense bonus while attacking.
Example: Shield - +2 Dodge, +2 Parry - 4p
Alternate Effect: Shield Slam +4 Str-Based Damage - 1p
Total: 5p

If you wanted to have full offense and defense from the shield, you could build it that way, buying both effects at full cost.
Spiked Shield - +2 Dodge/Parry, +4 Str-Based Damage - 8p
This could also be a large sword that can block attacks, or a sword and parrying dagger, or a polearm.

Attacking with a shield could even be a descriptor for a Power Attack or All-Out Attack maneuver, or their respective Advantages, which could be part of the PC's training, or even built into the shield as an Enhanced Advantage.

The point is you are not limited to how a particular piece of sample equipment is built if you are prepared to pay for the Effect(s) you want from it. For that matter, this is true of Powers as well.
Sorry, I can't hear your argument for realism over the sound of my eye beams. :P

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