Explain GL ranks

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Foreshadow
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Explain GL ranks

Postby Foreshadow » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:00 pm

Green Lantern ranks on their rings are based on willpower.

When I first saw Hal Jordan. I thought he was like a techie version of the sorcerer supreme. The more I read about him, he can't do anything, but does have a wide array of things he can do, mostly force construct variation. Can he read minds? and make his ring do Will based damage?

In other words, when I first saw his rank 18. I thought he must have it so he represents some 'tech' supreme type, sort of like Dr. Fate or something, and without that high rank, he would not fit his position.

Yet, then I see Hal Jordan on various media and think he doesn't seem like his will dwarves most others, especially 'high will' characters like Batman or Captain America or even Superman. I just see his ineptitude when he is first chosen as a GL and thinking, ok but did that ring seek him out and he was that super-rare human who had like a 15 Willpower.

In other words, why are GL rings set so high and why is Hal especially set so much higher. Couldn't rank 14 be a good default rank? or even rank 12. Could Hal have a rank 16 (and 16 Willpower) and still be the essential iconic Hal.

I look at the rings effects, and like Iron Man's energy blasts he clearly has an effect that would warrant a rank 15 or 16 (since a battleship blast is rank 15, these high powered energy weapons seem at least that effective, though large starcraft, or something like the USS enterprise would have much greater power). So perhaps there is a bit of a crunch involved from 15 to 20 damage.

Still explain to me why the Green Lantern ranks are done the way they are and their wills are set that high.

Is it because Hal has demonsrated his constructs are slightly less than Superman.

When I see superman-level characters go up against GL constructs I see them shatter than so the construct rank seems at least 1 or 2 ranks below. Black Adam and others like that can shatter right through them, at least with a power attack. So mathematically can a Str 19 Black Adam shatter rank 18 Green Lantern Hal Jordan's rank. I see many other lanterns set to rank 15. So does that mean Hal Jordan over a long period reached a level of will in the comic where he is acknowledged as pimped compared to the other lanterns? I'm sure that makes those much older and well established aliens feel great.

Its like Tiger Woods showing up and showing the collective white guys how Golf is suppose to be played and the Old Master Arnold Palmer needs to take some notes. To me, Hal's mentor would seem to be among the 'best' of the GL and it seems the write ups of the GL's reflect that Hal is in fact now better than most of them and equal at worse to his green lantern mentors?

Clue me in on why the write ups look like that?

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Re: Explain GL ranks

Postby Black Mamba » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:40 pm

The Green Lantern ring seeks-out potential - the potential to focus willpower. Training unlocks that potential. When the ring found Hal he might have had only a 10-12 Will, but after training with Kilowog, and others, and years of experience, his true potential was unleashed. It is also not uncommon for the apprentice to exceed the master - Joseph Campbell based a whole concept of mythology around the idea of the Hero's Journey. :)

Green Lantern has always been one of the most powerful characters in the modern DC pantheon - and Hal has always proven himself to be the among the best of the best, if not THE best, in the Corp. So putting him at PL 14 fits if you are going to establish the other DC heavy-hitters in the 14-15 range.

As far as whether his Will should be 16, 17, or 18 is all just subjective judgement call. Steve wanted him to be about half as powerful as Superman, so he was made an 18. In the grand scheme of things Hal's Will is not much higher than his contemporaries. It is just more focused due to training. For example, Superman has a 15 Will, himself, and would have made a good GL if Hal had not been closer to where Abin Sur crashed. It is possible that Superman might have had a 20 Will,or higher, if he was given the training that Hal was given. The same for Batman and many others.
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Re: Explain GL ranks

Postby Fists of Dorn » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:29 am

Foreshadow wrote:Still explain to me why the Green Lantern ranks are done the way they are and their wills are set that high.

Is it because Hal has demonsrated his constructs are slightly less than Superman.

When I see superman-level characters go up against GL constructs I see them shatter than so the construct rank seems at least 1 or 2 ranks below. Black Adam and others like that can shatter right through them, at least with a power attack. So mathematically can a Str 19 Black Adam shatter rank 18 Green Lantern Hal Jordan's rank. I see many other lanterns set to rank 15. So does that mean Hal Jordan over a long period reached a level of will in the comic where he is acknowledged as pimped compared to the other lanterns? I'm sure that makes those much older and well established aliens feel great.



As Black Mamba has said, his Will was likely pegged at 18 because of how it fit within the power scale of the DCU. Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, and Alan Scott are all examples of extraordinarily powerful Green Lanterns.

As for smashing through a GL's constructs, you can take a quick look at the rules for damaging inanimate objects under the Damage effect:

DCA Player's Handbook- Powers- Damage p.94-95 wrote:Objects (targets lacking a Stamina rank) take damage similar to other targets. Dazed and staggered condition have no effect on inanimate targets, since they do not take actions. Constructs, capable of action, are dazed and staggered normally (see Constructs in the Gadgets & Gear chapter).

Inanimate objects are defenseless by definition and therefore subject to finishing attacks (see Finishing Attack in the Action & Adventure chapter). Essentially, you can choose between making your attack on the object as a routine check or, if you make the attack check normally, gaining an automatic critical hit if your attack hits, for a +5 bonus to effect.

Attacking an object held or worn by another character is a smash action (see Smash in the Actions section of the Action & Adventure chapter).

If an attacker’s intention is to bend, break or destroy an inanimate object, then two degrees of failure on the Damage resistance check results in a break (such as a hole punched through the object) while three or more degrees of failure means the object is destroyed (shattered, smashed to pieces, etc.).



And considering how objects made with the Create effect interact with Damage:


DCA Player's Handbook- Powers- Create p.92 wrote:You can create an object with a maximum volume rank equal to your effect rank and Toughness equal to your effect rank. Created objects can be damaged or broken like ordinary objects.




Hal's Create effect rank is 18, meaning his GL Constructs have a Toughness bonus of +18 to resist Damage.
Black Adam's damage is +19, meaning that to successfully resist any damage, the target must succeed on a DC34 Toughness resistance check. If Black Adam chooses to he may attack the construct with a routine attack, but if he chose to roll his attack check normally and he hit, it would be considered a Finishing Attack- increasing the DC of the resistance check by a further +5 to make it a DC39 check.
Black Adam could push this DC even higher by using his Power Attack advantage when he wants to be through the object in a hurry.

So attacking as a Routine check: DC34
The construct would need a 16+ to ignore the attack's damage.
11-15 (29-33 total) on the roll would result in one degree of failure: Black Adam puts some cracks in Hal's Construct
6-10 (24-28 total) on the roll results in two degrees of failure: Black Adam punches a hole in Hal's Construct
1-5 (19-23 total) on the roll results in three degrees of failure: Black Adam smashes Hal's Construct to pieces


Rolling the attack check: DC39
The construct would, mathematically, need a 21+ to ignore the attack's damage. Remember that a natural result of 20 on the die indicates a critical success- increasing the number of degrees of success by one.
Natural 20 (38 total plus one degree of success) negates the damage.
16-19 (34-37 total) on the roll would result in one degree of failure: Black Adam puts some cracks in Hal's Construct
11-15 (29-33 total) on the roll results in two degrees of failure: Black Adam punches a hole in Hal's Construct
6-10 (24-28 total) on the roll results in three degrees of failure: Black Adam smashes Hal's Construct to pieces


Fully utilizing the Power Attack advantage when rolling the attack check: DC44
The construct would, mathematically, need a 26+ to ignore the attack's damage. Remember that a natural result of 20 on the die indicates a critical success- increasing the number of degrees of success by one.
A Natural 20 (38 total plus one degree of success) on the roll results in one degree of failure: Black Adam puts some cracks in Hal's Construct
16-19 (34-37 total) on the roll would result in two degrees of failure: Black Adam puts some cracks in Hal's Construct
11-15 (29-33 total) on the roll results in three degrees of failure: Black Adam punches a hole in Hal's Construct


So if someone like Black Adam decided to get through one of Hal's GL Constructs it would not take him particularly long to do so. Even with Hal able to repair any damage to his construct each round by reapplying his Create effect to the existing creation, and accounting for Hero Point/Luck Point possibilities, Black Adam's damage is still in a favorable position.



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Re: Explain GL ranks

Postby Foreshadow » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:53 pm

Thank you for the breakdown.

Nicely done :)

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Re: Explain GL ranks

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:06 am

Fists of Dorn wrote:So if someone like Black Adam decided to get through one of Hal's GL Constructs it would not take him particularly long to do so. Even with Hal able to repair any damage to his construct each round by reapplying his Create effect to the existing creation, and accounting for Hero Point/Luck Point possibilities, Black Adam's damage is still in a favorable position.

This is absolutely true - and nice breakdown for those unfamiliar with how Damage works against Create in 3E!

What the above scenario does do is keep Black Adam occupied each Round. So Black Adam is beating on an energy "thing" rather then on a character. If Black Adam also wants to attack Hal in the same Turn that he took out the Create " energy wall" holding him back then Black Adam is going to need to do Extra Effort: Action - and that is going to result in Hal getting a Hero Point. So having Create does have its advantages.
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

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Re: Explain GL ranks

Postby Fists of Dorn » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:50 am

Plus in most depictions of Green Lantern constructs being used as shields, they are one-way shields (blocking enemy attacks while allowing friendly fire to pass through unmolested). So if Hal had to, he could power stunt a version of his Create with the Selective extra on it. He could balance the cost by applying the Distracting flaw, because he is going to be focusing solely on keeping his Create effect standing up to the blows of Black Adam.
-Or he could apply the Feedback flaw, allowing him to fight the damage of Black Adam's raging attacks with his own Will Power more directly.


Glad the breakdown helped.



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Re: Explain GL ranks

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:09 am

I tend to get a lot of mileage out of the Distracting Flaw, myself. It is often my "go to" Flaw for Power Stunting.
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

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Re: Explain GL ranks

Postby Quistar » Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:30 am

And this neatly explains why my practice combats between these two inevitably see Adam winning. Some creative strategy and lateral thinking are needed to beat such a superior foe.

- Andrew <:-(}


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