Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

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ronyon
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Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby ronyon » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:02 pm

What can this be used with/ for?
Choose a particular hazard, such as falling, being tripped, triggering traps, mind control (or another fairly specific power effect, such as Damage with the fire descriptor) or a particular skill with consequences for failure. If you fail a check against that hazard, you can make another immediately and use the better of the two results. You only get one second chance for any given check, and the GM decides if a particular hazard or skill is an appropriate focus for this advantage. You can take this advantage multiple times, each for a different hazard.


"Damage with the fire descriptor" is pretty common. Could one take "Second Chance:Damage with the Unarmed descriptor"?
for a bare knuckle boxer?
Too common? Would both descriptor cost the same if taken as Immunities?


How about attack checks? Does "Close Combat: unarmed" count as " a particular skill with consequences for failure"
I should think not, but what about Countering checks with using X Effect or Descriptor?
What about Second Chance:Acrobatics checks for Feints, Second Chance: Intimdation for Startle, or Second Chance: Aid ?

I would probably guess that using it for attacks checks of any kind should not be allowed, but what about these other offensive combat actions, are they also a bad idea?




As for Triggered, I wanted to leave an area under observation, "warded" so the Triggering condition would allow the character to see what was going on, just like he was still there himself. Is this a legit use of Triggered?

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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby Fists of Dorn » Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:43 am

This is left up to the GM to determine. Damage with the Fire descriptor is used as an example of a "fairly specific power effect". That example will help to guide the GM in his decision making. He might evaluate Damage with the Bludgeoning descriptor to be on par, or he may consider it to not be specific enough though he may consider Damage with the Unarmed descriptor to be sufficiently specific an effect.
He could also allow the Unarmed version at 1 rank in the advantage and house rule that Bludgeoning could be a 2, 3, or even 5 rank version.



Triggered is for Instant duration effects. So no.

Instead you might want to work up a simple Remote Sensing effect.

Remote Sensing:
Extras: Increased duration: Continuous +1/rank (So it doesn't go away if you fall asleep or get KOed), Simultaneous +1/rank
Flaws: Limited to viewing when triggered by the Quirk -1/rank, Quirk: Activates viewing automatically when a Perception check detects something entering the area the Remote Sensing is focused on -1

Base cost +1/rank -1 from the total. The "Vision only" effect you describe would be [ (Rank x3) -1 ].

It can be expensive to do. Depending on what you want to achieve with this effect, your GM may allow you to simply purchase a Feature that gets the same effect.



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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby JDRook » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:40 am

The essence of Second Chance is to minimize a hazard: something undesirable happening to the character and having a chance to reroll the result. Most Resistance checks would be in this category, but any situation where the PC takes an Action where failure doesn't really change anything wouldn't be appropriate. Resisting someone trying to Intimidate you would be an appropriate Second Chance (and not a bad replacement for Fearless), while failing to Intimidate an opponent would not. Second Chance is essentially defensive, so anything that allows you to gain advantage as opposed to minimize a disadvantage is not appropriate, IMO.

I recall fixing someone's character who put Second Chance on their Ritual check. Rituals (and Inventions) only have a hazardous outcome if you fail your check by 3 degrees or roll a 1 (this is defined as a Mishap). I told him the Second Chance would only allow him to reroll vs Mishaps as opposed to any Ritual failure.

Triggered is specifically a single instant duration effect, and simulates things like traps or landmines very well as one-use objects that can go off without any supervision. You could set up a Trigger to scan an area and then "ping" you if something moved in it, but that would be it. You cannot use Triggered for ongoing observation; Dorn's use of Remote Sensing is what you would want for that.

On the other hand, Trigger can be pretty detailed, since by default the Trigger can sense anything you can. If you wanted to you could have the Trigger set to go off if it spotted a particular person or uniform insignia or hand gesture, or heard a specific voice or code phrase, etc. For one point, it would only do it once, though.
Sorry, I can't hear your argument for realism over the sound of my eye beams. :P

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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:22 pm

ronyon wrote:"Damage with the fire descriptor" is pretty common. Could one take "Second Chance:Damage with the Unarmed descriptor"?
for a bare knuckle boxer?
Too common? Would both descriptor cost the same if taken as Immunities?


I'd allow it, but it needs to be a little more specific based on descriptor. I mean if you are doing the world class boxer concept then i wouldn't set it at "unarmed descriptor," as much as i would put it at "Unarmed descriptor, martial arts." Because remember unarmed decriptor can include things like a villain having a radioactive aura, or claws.

For me, it always comes back to descriptor.
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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby ronyon » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:41 am

Thanks for your responses.
So the use of Second Chance is pretty simple, no offenses , defenses only,and a GMs call within those limitations.
I like Second Chance: Vs. Damage With Martial Arts Descriptor(Thank you St. Matthew),and Second Chance:Martial Arts Counter. Seems to fit what I have in mind. I am also interested in Second Chance Parry Vs. Martial Arts.
I am a little concerned that the Martial Arts descriptor excludes punches from guys that are just strong and untrained.
Perhaps Unarmed(Strength Based), would cover this better. The Second Chance:Martial Arts Counter should stay the same, as it describes the defense the character is using.

I don't have a GM to bounce things off of, so I'm asking if these uses of Second Chance meet with board approval.

Any votes yeah or neigh?

Seems that Senses could be Triggered if the Duration was lowered to Instant,but it would offer only a flash of sensation.
Given your point that Triggered can use any of the heros senses,perhaps I should add it onto a properly modified Communications.
Then again,the Feature option is probably the best,simple and to the point, not over powered.

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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby Fists of Dorn » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:32 am

saint_matthew wrote:Because remember unarmed decriptor can include things like a villain having a radioactive aura, or claws.


Despite the villain using the "Close Combat: Unarmed" skill for making attacks, the radioactive aura should be a "Radiation" descriptor, and the claws should be something along the lines of a "Piercing/Slashing" descriptor(s).
The aura shouldn't really be using the Unarmed descriptor- at least I'm not imagining a scenario where it would. Even with a radioactive humanoid throwing a punch at a hero, the punch is "Unarmed" in nature, the radioactive nature of the villain's form is "Radiation". Discerning between slipping the punch of a radioactive humanoid, a thug on the street, or the clawing attacks of Cheetah is going a bit far in my opinion.
I could see even allowing unusual combatants, say a Zerg Hydralisk, getting to ignore the hero's Second Chance advantage on the basis that the hero had never encountered such a strange creature (and award the hero a hero point). After battling a few such creatures and making Assessment checks throughout the battles, I would eventually lift that restriction.

But that all encompasses how each person develops their own views on what works best for them with the Second Chance advantage. So, ronyon, I'd say figure out what fits your view best, but be prepared to set that aside while playing in a game run by someone else. Polite discussion of your viewpoint and your GM's is great, but don't get disappointed if (s)he refuses to cede to your own interpretation.



ronyon wrote:Second Chance:Martial Arts Counter


Not certain what you are getting at with Counter. Are you thinking of using this as a second chance for when using the Defend Action against attacks targeting your Parry?
Some GMs might want that to be narrowed to "Countering Unarmed" or "Countering Unarmed- Martial Arts".



ronyon wrote:I am a little concerned that the Martial Arts descriptor excludes punches from guys that are just strong and untrained.
Perhaps Unarmed(Strength Based), would cover this better.


Generally speaking (and I think this is some of what Saint Matthew was getting at) fighting without weapons- regardless of skill, training, etc.- all falls under the header of "Martial Arts". Just because your water-color painting isn't on display in a museum somewhere doesn't mean it is not art.

Unarmed (Strength-based) would cover significantly more things. Swords, knives, fighting claws, a creature's own claws, batons, and your friend Randy are all things that can be wielded as "Strength-Based" weapons.



ronyon wrote:Any votes yeah or neigh?


Just as a note: Yay/Yeah or Nay is what you want to use here. Neigh is the cry of a horse (also Whinny).



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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:10 pm

Fists of Dorn wrote:
saint_matthew wrote:Because remember unarmed decriptor can include things like a villain having a radioactive aura, or claws.


Despite the villain using the "Close Combat: Unarmed" skill for making attacks, the radioactive aura should be a "Radiation" descriptor, and the claws should be something along the lines of a "Piercing/Slashing" descriptor(s).
The aura shouldn't really be using the Unarmed descriptor- at least I'm not imagining a scenario where it would. Even with a radioactive humanoid throwing a punch at a hero, the punch is "Unarmed" in nature, the radioactive nature of the villain's form is "Radiation". Discerning between slipping the punch of a radioactive humanoid, a thug on the street, or the clawing attacks of Cheetah is going a bit far in my opinion.


They do have those descriptor, but they were also unarmed attacks, which is specifically why i used them for my example: unarmed was to vague a descriptor otherwise for second chance. "Unarmed; Martial Arts" on the other hand cuts out all of the superflous radiation attacks & claws, anything that is using unarmed as a rider.

Because statistically there is no difference between a strike that is a punch, strike that is claws & strike that is a punch powered by mystical chi energy. Same with the Energy Aura, there is no difference between the energy aura radiation & energy aura defensive punching whirling dervish. Thats why we build descriptors into our active powers, including advantages. :D
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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby ronyon » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:32 pm

Unarmed (Strength-based) would cover significantly more things. Swords, knives, fighting claws, a creature's own claws, batons, and your friend Randy are all things that can be wielded as "Strength-Based" weapons


This is what i want. I used bare knuckle brawler as an example, but the actual character has centuries of fighting and dying,over and over again.
Second chance:Strength Based Damage would be better, since it would cover spears and bows, but it is probably too broad.
I think Second Chance:Unarmed(Strength Based) is probably fine, but I don't think it would cover swords,knives,batons or my friend Randy. Well maybe my friend Randy, if he is wielded via the Improvised Weapon advantage.
So maybe I would want Second Chance:
~Active defense vs. Martial Arts
~Active defenses vs. Archaic Weapons
~Martial Arts Counter.

The Countering I was referring to was a Reaction(to being attacked) Strength Counter with the Variable Descriptor(Martial Arts). This is to be used to model a counter strike style parry,a Remo Williams dodge, a monks arrow deflection,"Tricking" an enemy into punching the wall or cohort behind you,or diving for cover that is conveniently present.

Basically It allows the character to respond to attacks with an Attack or a Counter.
Second Chance:Martial Arts Counter is there to aid when the character uses his Reaction Strength for Countering.

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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby betterwatchit » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:23 am

The way I interpret it, it reads as: Skill or Defence roll against specific hazard.

For example: My OC has autism. Due to the way his brain's wired, there's every chance that an emotion-controlling effect could hit a part of the brain it doesn't affect at all. This gives him Second Chance (Will rolls to keep emotions in control).

It's basically a secondary Triggered resistance roll.

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Re: Proper use of the Second Chance Advantage and Triggered

Postby saint_matthew » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:07 am

betterwatchit wrote:For example: My OC has autism. Due to the way his brain's wired, there's every chance that an emotion-controlling effect could hit a part of the brain it doesn't affect at all.


Thats not how Autism works... At all.
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