Some question after last night session

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IKerensky
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Some question after last night session

Postby IKerensky » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:56 am

1- Trip :
Does a Trip attack that succeed do damage in addition to put the target prone ? because using a standard action to put someone in a position he will automatically exit next turn with a move action seems quite detrimental and useless.

2- Grab :
Does the Improved Hold work on the initial attack ?

3- Grab Finesse :
Is the Dexterity modifier used for latter Evasion attempt ? Doesn't seems that it is so.

4- Area of effect:
They seems tremendously efficient for quite a cheap cost. The fact that the oppostion can, at best, only suffer half effect make them certain weapon... any way to diminish their impact ?

5- Throwing range:
The rules as shown seems totally out of whack, a National Weightlifting Champion (STR +5), can throw a standard individu (Weight 2) at range 3 : 250 feet... or 80 meters oO That make absolutely no sense. Even a standard human can throw a 50lbs bagpack up to 30 feets oO
With this kind of equation, world champion in hammer throwing should aim for (STR +5), (Hammer weight 17 lbs, Weight -1) = Range 6 so 1800 FEETS ! I think stadiums are definitely too small.

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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Black Mamba » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:08 am

IKerensky wrote:1- Trip :
Does a Trip attack that succeed do damage in addition to put the target prone ? because using a standard action to put someone in a position he will automatically exit next turn with a move action seems quite detrimental and useless.

I believe the original intent was for them to not do Damage - you simply knocked them to the ground without really harming them - though they might take some falling Damage. In my games I have a Combat Trip Advantage which allows you to Trip them and also do STR Damage.

2- Grab :
Does the Improved Hold work on the initial attack ?

I have always treated it as such.

3- Grab Finesse :
Is the Dexterity modifier used for latter Evasion attempt ? Doesn't seems that it is so.

Grabbing finesse is strictly for Attacking. Escape requires Athletics or Acrobatics.

4- Area of effect:
They seems tremendously efficient for quite a cheap cost. The fact that the oppostion can, at best, only suffer half effect make them certain weapon... any way to diminish their impact ?

As Area attacks are limited to PL reducing them to half is quite effective, IMO. Someone with a 12 Toughness getting hit with a 10 Damage Area attack can reduce the Damage to 5. Someone with a 12 Toughness has a 65% chance of taking no Damage.

But to answer your question, no. There is no way to take less than half.

5- Throwing range:
The rules as shown seems totally out of whack, a National Weightlifting Champion (STR +5), can throw a standard individu (Weight 2) at range 3 : 250 feet... or 80 meters oO That make absolutely no sense. Even a standard human can throw a 50lbs bagpack up to 30 feets oO
With this kind of equation, world champion in hammer throwing should aim for (STR +5), (Hammer weight 17 lbs, Weight -1) = Range 6 so 1800 FEETS ! I think stadiums are definitely too small.

Well, first, the game is not trying to reflect reality. It is trying to reflect a comic book environment where people get thrown down the street or across town fairly regularly. If you do not like the values simply reduce them. The chart is only there to speed up game play and keep players from needing to stop and make calculations.
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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby IKerensky » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:12 am

Thanks for the answer,

3- Grab FInesse: I was thinking, does Dexterity set the DC to the escape attempt after the initial grab.

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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Black Mamba » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:15 am

IKerensky wrote:Thanks for the answer,

3- Grab FInesse: I was thinking, does Dexterity set the DC to the escape attempt after the initial grab.

Yes, just as STR would for a normal Grab. It is just a simple substitution.
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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Arthur Eld » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:18 am

2- Grab :
Does the Improved Hold work on the initial attack ?


No, Improved Hold is a penalty to your opponent's escape attempts, not really a bonus to your grab checks. It comes into play after you win the initial opposed check. The text for Escapes (which Improved Holds modify) specifically mention a successful grab.

3- Grab Finesse :
Is the Dexterity modifier used for latter Evasion attempt ? Doesn't seems that it is so.


No, you don't use Dex for escapes. However, since you use either Athletics or Sleight of Hand (not Acrobatics, BM), if your Dex is higher than your Athletics bonus and you have no ranks of Sleight of Hand, its basically the same thing, since you can make an untrained Sleight of Hand check using your raw Dex.


As far as throwing goes, keep in mind how most thrown weapons work, and that's as Blast effects. So even though Batman could throw an object the weight of a Batarang stupid far, his Batarangs as written (Strength-based Ranged Damage 2) really only have an effective range of 150 feet before he starts taking ranged penalties.

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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Black Mamba » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:21 am

Arthur Eld wrote:No, you don't use Dex for escapes. However, since you use either Athletics or Sleight of Hand (not Acrobatics, BM)

That is odd considering that my book clearly states under Escape:

Make a check of your Athletics or Acrobatics against...

I see no mention of Sleight of Hand at all. :)
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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Arthur Eld » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:23 am

Huh. My book says 'Make a check of your Athletics or Sleight of Hand.'

Also under the skill description for Sleight of Hand it specifically mentions Escaping, while Acrobatics does not.

EDIT-It seems that might have been errata, cause looking at the M&M 3rd edition rules (and not the DCA Handbook), it mentions Acrobatics. It also mentions under Sleight of hand that escaping from a grab is Acrobatics or Athletics. Weird.

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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Black Mamba » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:27 am

Arthur Eld wrote:Huh. My book says 'Make a check of your Athletics or Sleight of Hand.'

Also under the skill description for Sleight of Hand it specifically mentions Escaping, while Acrobatics does not.

My copy of DCA states:

Make a check of your Acrobatics or Athletics


And my copy of the 3EHH states:

Make a check of your Athletics or Acrobatics


Outside of switching the Skills around they both same the same thing. I guess I got a later printing.
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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby badpenny » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:05 am

IKerensky wrote:2- Grab :
Does the Improved Hold work on the initial attack ?


The Escape only takes place after the Grab has been successful, so it does not apply to the initial attack.

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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Black Mamba » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:22 am

badpenny wrote:
IKerensky wrote:2- Grab :
Does the Improved Hold work on the initial attack ?


The Escape only takes place after the Grab has been successful, so it does not apply to the initial attack.

I allow the Improved Hold bonus because Grabs are much easier to avoid in 3E than they were in 2E. It is not difficult to make a Resistance Check against STR - especially when you get to use STR or Dodge.

A Paragon with a 12 STR becomes a DC 22 to Resist. Someone with an 11 STR has a 50% chance of avoiding the Maneuver, and the Martial Artsy type with the 14 Dodge has a 2/3 chance of not being Grabbed. Because you can substitute STR or Dodge the current system is extremely biased toward the attacker, IMO - you cannot hold the guys in your own, general, Strength brackets and you really cannot hold onto the agile guys even if you manage to hit them.
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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby badpenny » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:37 am

I don't disagree on the house rule, but I think the RAW should also be represented.

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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Black Mamba » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:21 am

badpenny wrote:I don't disagree on the house rule, but I think the RAW should also be represented.

You are correct. I answered above without really thinking about it - the house rule has been my rule for so long that I no-longer think of it as a house rule. 8)
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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby IKerensky » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:30 pm

Yes, but does grabbing finesse use Dexterity to MAINTAIN the hold afterward ?

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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Black Mamba » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:51 pm

IKerensky wrote:Yes, but does grabbing finesse use Dexterity to MAINTAIN the hold afterward ?

Yes, DEX is the Ability that is used throughout. So in a future Escape attempt they roll against your DEX value +10. At no point does it switch to STR.
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Re: Some question after last night session

Postby Foreshadow » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:39 am

For the throwing rules, take the official formula and add a -2 on it so it reads the rank you calculate -2 ranks, if you got 120 feet, -2 ranks would render 30 feet, and if 60 feet it would render 15 feet. If you want add another one so you get -3 ranks. Then Batman can throw 200 pounds about 15 feet.

the point is, the solution is in a modifier you add to that existing rule. Simple to fix. You decide what the modifier is.


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