Some questions.

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Re: Some questions.

Postby Bladewind » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:08 pm

Can you give page numbers for those citations? Reading them the way you posted, yes they are contradictory but I think there's a little more text around those points that clears it up.

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Re: Some questions.

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:15 pm

All of the choices listed under "Going For The Kill" are different options you can choose to use. You are not expected to use them all. You pick the ones that best fit your needs.

The first option in DCA is that you can state your intent to kill, and then when the target gets Incapacitate they must make a Dying Check.

The second option in DCA is that Minions always die instead of being Incapacitated.

The third option in DCA is that some attack types are always considered Lethal, and when you get Incapacitated they must make a Dying Check.

The fourth option in DCA is to add a Dying Condition to Afflictions.

The fifth option in DCA is that you do not get a Dying Check if you are Incapacitated. You are just dead.

The sixth option in DCA is that killing attacks can recover slower and lead to Lasting Injuries.

As I said above, you can use as many of these option as you want. For example, in my games I use the first, third, and fourth options.

There is no contradiction. You simply do not use them all.
Last edited by Black Mamba on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some questions.

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:21 pm

Bladewind wrote:Can you give page numbers for those citations? Reading them the way you posted, yes they are contradictory but I think there's a little more text around those points that clears it up.

Going For The Kill is listed on page 186 of DCA.
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Re: Some questions.

Postby Bladewind » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:32 pm

Thanks. Guess I don't need to look it up as you answered the question though ;)

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Re: Some questions.

Postby Alex_UNLIMITED » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:32 am

Can all circumstance bonus overcome PL? I ask this because sometimes is written that, sometimes not.

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Re: Some questions.

Postby Black Mamba » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:41 am

Alex_UNLIMITED wrote:Can all circumstance bonus overcome PL? I ask this because sometimes is written that, sometimes not.

As I answered above, anything intentionally listed as a Circumstance Bonus can exceed PL. I am not aware of any instances where that would not be true. Can reference these "sometimes not" examples for me? It might just be a bit of confusion due to translation error.
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Re: Some questions.

Postby Alex_UNLIMITED » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:02 am

In some cases I've read "can overcome PL limits", in other cases not.

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Re: Some questions.

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:27 am

I haven't found a single case where the book says "this circumstance modifier cannot exceed power level limits" or anything of the like.

The book does have a number of cases where it says, explicitly, "this circumstance bonus can exceed power level limits" and there are several cases where power level isn't mentioned.

My own interpretation is that any circumstance bonus can exceed the limits of power level, and the book merely stresses that on various combat maneuvers.
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Re: Some questions.

Postby Bladewind » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:46 am

which sounds like what Alex is saying... that sometimes it says it and sometimes it doesn`t.

Eitherway, I tend to agree with Kenn and Mamba

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Re: Some questions.

Postby Black Mamba » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:30 pm

Alex_UNLIMITED wrote:In some cases I've read "can overcome PL limits", in other cases not.

If you are talking about things like Power Attack or Defensive Attack, and the like, those are not Circumstance Bonuses being granted. Those are Tradeoff Bonuses: you are taking penalties on one thing to get a bonus on another thing.

Circumstance Bonuses are not limited by PL. I cannot recall seeing anything listed with a Circumstance Bonus that was not also considered to be able to exceed PL.
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Re: Some questions.

Postby Fists of Dorn » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:35 am

Black Mamba wrote:Circumstance Bonuses are not limited by PL. I cannot recall seeing anything listed with a Circumstance Bonus that was not also considered to be able to exceed PL.



DCA: Action & Adventure- Actions- Aim p.175 wrote:By taking a standard action to aim and line up an attack, you get a bonus to hit when you make the attack. If you’re making a close attack, or a ranged attack at close range, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on your attack check. If you’re making a ranged attack from a greater distance, you get a +2 circumstance bonus.
However, you are vulnerable while aiming and it requires a free action to maintain your aim before you make your attack. If you are unable to maintain it, you lose its benefit.
Once you aim, your next action must be to make the at- tack. Taking a different action spoils your aim and you lose the bonus.



DCA: The Basics- Gameplay- Checks- Circumstantial Modifiers p.15 wrote:Some circumstances make checks easier or harder, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the check. Characters in a favorable situation are said to have a circumstance bonus for the check, while those in a disadvantageous situation are said to have a circumstance penalty.
As a general rule, apply a modifier of plus or minus 2 if the character is at a minor bonus or minor penalty, and a modifier of plus or minus 5 if the character is at a major bonus or major penalty for the check::

+/–2  for  bonus/penalty
+/–5  for  major  Bonus/Penalty



For a long while I thought Circumstantial Bonuses were intended to break Power Level Limits, but the rules read to the contrary. Personally I prefer to game with the house rule that Circumstantial Bonuses are allowed to exceed PL.

"Aim" is one example of a Circumstance Bonus that does not specifically exceed PL limits. And because the rules for Circumstance Modifiers don't specifically allow Bonuses to exceed PL limits, the omission of the line- common to most Circumstance Bonuses- cannot be viewed as an omission on the basis that all Circumstance Bonuses are allowed to break PL limits.

As I said though, I prefer to house rule that all circumstance bonuses exceed PL limits. For one thing it makes things like using the Aim Action useful for everyone. Otherwise only characters at medium/long range or those whose attack bonus is already under PL are going to benefit (and those with the Improved Aim advantage would really have to be under-built to take full advantage of their investment).

Another advantage is being able to use Extra Effort to gain/increase a Circumstance Bonus. It doesn't specifically mention that the bonus is able to exceed PL limits, so that ends up often being a poor choice for a hero when trying to find a way to help him/herself out in a situation.

Team Attacks are another area that would suffer in most instances. The circumstance bonus to damage is not, as written, allowed to exceed PL. That wouldn't be an issue in games where characters are often under-built offensively, however that is a rarity. Even the Bat-Family characters have difficulty taking advantage of it thanks to their extremely high attack values.



While I can certainly see running Circumstance Bonuses by the rules as they are written and having fun doing so, it would take much more restraint on the players/GM when building characters to avoid reaching for those PL Caps in many areas (Mostly skills, including the various combat skills).
For me though, I think that opening these bonuses up for everyone to use equally is more in line with the spirit of these Circumstance Modifiers.



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Re: Some questions.

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:34 am

There is nothing in the rules that say Circumstance modifiers are affected by power level.

What it does say (p. 25, DCA) in the section about Power Level [emphasis mine]
Skill Modifier: Your hero’s total modifier with any skill (ability rank + skill rank + advantage modifiers) cannot exceed the series power level +10. This includes untrained skill modifiers using only ability rank, and so sets an effective limit on all abilities associated with skills.


There is nothing about Circumstance modifiers; the whole point of circumstance modifiers is that they change. It does include advantage modifiers, though. Which makes sense, advantage modifiers are pretty reliable. However we then get several Advantages where there is a bonus and each specifically says "this circumstance bonus is not affected by power level". These are in the Advantages; the notation is there to exclude it from the rule about Advantage Modifiers. Because it's not automatic, but circumstantial, it counts as a circumstance bonus, not an advantage bonus, and can therefore exceed power level.
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Re: Some questions.

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:42 am

Fists of Dorn wrote:"Aim" is one example of a Circumstance Bonus that does not specifically exceed PL limits. And because the rules for Circumstance Modifiers don't specifically allow Bonuses to exceed PL limits, the omission of the line- common to most Circumstance Bonuses- cannot be viewed as an omission on the basis that all Circumstance Bonuses are allowed to break PL limits.

Your example for using Aim would make little sense when you take into account the criteria for PL. Since one of the criteria for PL is Attack + Damage/Effect equaling a certain value no one would ever be able to use Aim, because everyone would already be at PL. So if it did not exceed PL it would be a non-usable Maneuver. :)

I would not put too much stock into accidental phrasing omissions. Both current books, and previous editions, have been rife with them. And while I cannot actually confirm it I seem to remember Steve and Jon doing a podcast prior to the release of DCA/3E where they even discussed the "new" concept of Circumstance Bonuses in the game and why the came about in 3E - but my memory could be faulty.

I cannot find any 3E comments from Steve or Jon about this - unfortunately they do not answer rules questions any more. I did find this particular line from Steve, though:

3) All of the above assumes Batman doesn't have anything other than minimal concealment and isn't using any circumstance bonuses, which significantly shift the odds even further in his favor. With a major bonus, which negates the benefit of a critical success, effectively, Average Guy is again shut out. Likewise, it assumes Batman's player lets a poor (die roll of 5 or less) Stealth roll stand without spending a hero point (which again, totally shuts out the average guy's result).

The above is discussing Stealth versus Perception Checks. Batman has a +20 Steath, which is 2 away from level cap. Now you could argue that Steve was only talking about a +2 Circumstance Bonus to Stealth there, but I do not believe that to be the case - as he specifically mentions a Major Bonus.

As for your Extra Effort example, the bonus received for doing the Power or Strength choices does not state you can exceed PL either, yet clearly they can due to, as I mentioned above, the way PL is handled in the game. A simple omission.

I also suggest you check out the Batman combat example here which clearly shows 2 thugs using Aid to boost a 3rd thug's Attack by +5 so that he can hit Batman - there is little doubt those thugs were PL capped.

Edited 3 times to fix a stupid link. :(
Last edited by Black Mamba on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Some questions.

Postby Alex_UNLIMITED » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:44 am

So, can overcome PL?

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Re: Some questions.

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:47 am

Alex_UNLIMITED wrote:So, can overcome PL?

Every example I have ever seen, and that includes Con games and Demos run by Steve, has allowed it. Virtually every example listed in the book states it can. If you want a more official answer then that you better email Steve Kenson - but good luck on getting a reply. :)
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