Comparing Kryptonians

Join the never-ending battle for truth and justice in the world's greatest super-hero universe, using the world's greatest super-hero roleplaying game! This forum is for discussion of DC ADVENTURES.
User avatar
Talison
Partisan
Partisan
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:51 pm
Contact:

Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Talison » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:17 pm

Looking through Heroes & Villains and there are a number of inconsistencies between Kryptonian characters. Wondering what you all think or which version everyone goes with. I looked at Superman, Superboy, Supergirl, Power Girl, General Zod, Mon-El, Krypto, Streaky, Ultraman, Bizarro, Eradicator, and Cyborg Superman for these comparisons.

In the HH Superman has acute on his hearing. I believe Superboy does as well in the quick start guide. Hearing is by default acute, so this is unnecessary. In H&V vol 1 all the Kryptonian characters have accurate in it's place. In Vol 2 most have neither accurate or acute, although Krypto and Streaky both still have acute. I can see Superman (and the others) having accurate, but I'm not sure it's entirely necessary.

In the HH Superman has a high quickness in his flight array that stacks with another lower quickness score. In the errata the quickness in the array is lowered, but the mechanic is left the same. In Vol 1 all the Kryptonian characters are instead just given the lower Quickness outside their flight array. In most of the write-ups in Vol 2 they keep the single lower score, although Superman stays true to the errata with two stacking scores and Krypto and Streaky seem based on that Superman write-up with two scores. Personally, I go for the lower single score. This makes The Marvel and Black Adam families both have much higher quickness scores on the whole, but as the single lower score for the Kryptonians is outside the Flight array, and therefore can be used while they are flying. I think this makes it more useful.

Finally, Superman is given a Super Breath array in Vol 2 while no other characters were given this (although Bizarro has flame breath). While Super Breath is essentially a power stunt, I have no problem with the idea that it's become bread and butter enough for Superman that he spent the pp to have it permanently. The others use it less frequently so just power stunt it.

Just some things I noticed while getting back into the game, and figured I'd think out loud here.

User avatar
Black Mamba
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9477
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:45 pm

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:07 pm

Welcome back to the game. I am only recently back as well. We are just a couple of old newbs. :)

Good eye on catching all that! Personally, I do not spend too much time intensely looking at the various DC builds. I tend to use them for Power construct ideas and as a template for my own builds. That is not to say they are bad builds, just that I have my own visions of the various characters - my versions are more era-specific rather than iconic.

When you are dealing with so many characters, and so many authors who have different interpretations, it is quite easy to overlook things. I think if all the Superman Family was done by a single author there would probably be a lot more consistency between the builds - though I have no way of knowing what might have been changed in editing. Plus the 3E rules were quite new for the authors and it is easy to make a rules' mistake when you are not entirely familiar with the new system.

If I were doing the builds I would probably lay them out in an spreadsheet so that I could get side-by-side comparison. That way I could make sure I had PLs, Abilities, and Powers agreeing with each other, but I have the luxury of time to do that.
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

User avatar
Talison
Partisan
Partisan
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Talison » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:40 pm

That's pretty much how I discovered it. I'm working on characters for my own setting which are part homage and part parody and I was basing them on their nearest DC Counterpart.

User avatar
HustlerOne
Zealot
Zealot
Posts: 1233
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:39 pm

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby HustlerOne » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:53 pm

Talison wrote:That's pretty much how I discovered it. I'm working on characters for my own setting which are part homage and part parody and I was basing them on their nearest DC Counterpart.


Everyone seems to do a lot of that with DC and Marvel characters. Freedom city being a good example.
It's really hard to come up with a original character that hasn't been thought up by DC or Marvel. Still,
you should borrow someone's cool idea then put your own neat twist on it.

User avatar
Talison
Partisan
Partisan
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:51 pm
Contact:

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Talison » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:56 pm

HustlerOne wrote:
Talison wrote:That's pretty much how I discovered it. I'm working on characters for my own setting which are part homage and part parody and I was basing them on their nearest DC Counterpart.


Everyone seems to do a lot of that with DC and Marvel characters. Freedom city being a good example.
It's really hard to come up with a original character that hasn't been thought up by DC or Marvel. Still,
you should borrow someone's cool idea then put your own neat twist on it.


Well, my idea specifically pokes fun at comic book tropes and such, while also being a love letter to comics. So I had to have some archetypes be prevalent. All that said, I tries to put twists in wherever possible. Also, it has a bit of an adult slant. More Venture Bros. than Young Justice.

User avatar
Goldar
Disciple
Disciple
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:58 am

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Goldar » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:32 pm

I also noticed some of the points you mentioned, Talison.

In addition, the stats for Kryptonians under a red/yellow sun appear to be kind of at random, that is, not a fixed amount. It does not appear that STR or STA etc are a fixed number that adds to a person's baseline abilities under a yellow sun.

For example: under a (yellow) red sun, STR and STA: Superman (19,14) has 3, 3; Supergirl (15,10) 1, 1; Power Girl (17,13) 1, 2; Gen Zod (18,14) 2, 3; Superboy (15,10) none listed; Ultraman (19,14) just states he loses powers without regular kryptonite exposure.

This makes it difficult for me to figure out how they arrived at each person's abilities. If there is another Kryptonian character (not officially profiled) that I want to make stats for, I am not sure how to make their numbers so as to not have them overpowered/underpowered.

User avatar
Black Mamba
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9477
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:45 pm

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Black Mamba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:47 pm

Goldar wrote:This makes it difficult for me to figure out how they arrived at each person's abilities. If there is another Kryptonian character (not officially profiled) that I want to make stats for, I am not sure how to make their numbers so as to not have them overpowered/underpowered.

I think the error there is in the thinking that the yellow sun adds the exact same fixed amount to everyone. Just like in real life, some people can get more nutrients from meats while others are better at processing grains or fruits. The bonus each person gets is conducive to their individual physiology.

And, of course, ultimately the numbers are all just guestimates. The important number is the final value, as the characters are going to spend only a fraction of their overall gaming time in a de-powered state. :)
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

User avatar
Earth-Two_Kenn
Heavyweight
Heavyweight
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:13 pm
Location: Outer Chicagoland, Earth-Two
Contact:

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:51 pm

Actually, the three adults are consistent.
Superman: 19-3 = 16, 14-3 = 11
Power Girl: 17-1 = 16, 13-2 = 11
General Zod: 18-2 = 16, 14-3 = 11

The oddball is Supergirl
Supergirl : 15-1 = 14, 10-1 = 9
and honestly the slip of a girl that Kara Zor-el is, I'd be surprised if she really was STR 1, STA 1 powerless. But then again, comparing her to Lobo, and based on "The Brave and the Bold" #4, I'm of the opinion they under powered her anyway.

And Conner is only half Kryptonian anyway, and not yet an adult.

So my conclusion is that, per the H&V books, a yellow sun adds 16 STR and 11 STA to Kryptonians, and whomever built Supergirl goofed.
Over eleven hundred DCA/M&M Character builds at http://www.rcuhero.net

User avatar
Black Mamba
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9477
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:45 pm

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Black Mamba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:28 pm

Earth-Two_Kenn wrote:So my conclusion is that, per the H&V books, a yellow sun adds 16 STR and 11 STA to Kryptonians, and whomever built Supergirl goofed.

Good catch! Things like that I why I prefer spreadsheets. :)
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

greycrusader
Superhero
Superhero
Posts: 1876
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:30 am
Location: 15 Mechling Way Greensurg PA 15601

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby greycrusader » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:43 pm

On the Ultraman build, I can only state as the author I was instructed to model the build VERY closely on the Kal-El that appeared in the DCU Adventures Handbook-the build which treated super-breath as a power stunt, not a standard array power.

The Antimatter Universe version of Ultraman does not lose his powers under a red sun, so far as shown. He's not a Kryptonian, though there has been fan speculation the extraterrestrials who genetically altered him were from Krypton. His superhuman abilities are derived from K-radiation, not yellow solar rays. The Silver Age/Bronze Age Ultraman would have the Complication however, and so would most of the parallel versions of the Big Red S seen since the 52 series a few years back.

I would tend to agree Supergirl is a bit underpowered at PL 12, though that might fit the Linda Lee version or the younger Justice League Unlimited iteration of Supergirl. And remember-a lot of people are familiar with those versions, as Kara Zor-El was largely absent from comics for nearly twenty years.

As said before, while these are the "official and approved" character sheets, GMs and players will have different ideas about what the iconic builds should be, let alone versions hailing from particular comic book eras.

(Though we can all agree Karate Kid would step all over Lady Shiva, that's just blindingly obvious and the stats in the books are clearly a Time Trapper ploy.)

All my best!
The Contingent: When all other super teams fail...

User avatar
Black Mamba
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9477
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:45 pm

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Black Mamba » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:51 pm

greycrusader wrote:(Though we can all agree Karate Kid would step all over Lady Shiva, that's just blindingly obvious and the stats in the books are clearly a Time Trapper ploy.)

I see your ploy! Throwing the Kid in here to throw us off you scent! :lol:
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

User avatar
Goldar
Disciple
Disciple
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:58 am

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Goldar » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:22 pm

Earth-Two_Kenn wrote:Actually, the three adults are consistent.
Superman: 19-3 = 16, 14-3 = 11
Power Girl: 17-1 = 16, 13-2 = 11
General Zod: 18-2 = 16, 14-3 = 11

The oddball is Supergirl
Supergirl : 15-1 = 14, 10-1 = 9
and honestly the slip of a girl that Kara Zor-el is, I'd be surprised if she really was STR 1, STA 1 powerless. But then again, comparing her to Lobo, and based on "The Brave and the Bold" #4, I'm of the opinion they under powered her anyway.

And Conner is only half Kryptonian anyway, and not yet an adult.

So my conclusion is that, per the H&V books, a yellow sun adds 16 STR and 11 STA to Kryptonians, and whomever built Supergirl goofed.


By Jove, I think you have figured it out!

I wasn't looking at Power Girl as an adult, but I guess she is/could be considered one. And that leads to Supergirl's stats as being a teen-ager, so they would be less, in this case 2 less for each STR and STA. That makes sense. I don't think it was a goof, but carefully planned out to be 14/9 versus the 16/11 of the adults. She can certainly go up in the future as she matures.

Superboy is also a teen-ager and while only half-Kryptonian, should still "suffer" under the red sun with a decrease in STR and STA, but the exact amount is not known. Perhaps the same 14/9 as Supergirl since it is his half-Kryptonian (not human) physiology that gives Conner his superhuman stats.

greycrusader
Superhero
Superhero
Posts: 1876
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 8:30 am
Location: 15 Mechling Way Greensurg PA 15601

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby greycrusader » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:44 pm

If I was using a teenage Kara Zor-El (anywhere from 15 to 19 years old) as Supergirl, I would stick actually do Strength 16 and Stamina 13 when under a yellow sun, with Str 0 and Sta 2 when powerless. The young Kara was athletic and fit, but had a typical slim teenage girl's physique, without much extra muscle.

Power Girl's body build has varied wildly between artists-when introduced (and drawn by the great Wally Wood) she was a curvier and much more voluptuous version of Kara; since then she has been portrayed as a typical generic superheroine, a brawny, massively busty and thick-set bruiser, a skinny woman with enormous breasts, and a compact female body builder.

Since I like latter two depictions best, I'd go with a Str 18/2 Powergirl, but probably drop her Sta to 11/2, as PG is often depicted as less durable than Earth One/0/New/Whatever Kryptonians. The bump up in Str would be accompanied by a slightly lower Fighting stat, to keep her PL the same.

All my best.
The Contingent: When all other super teams fail...

User avatar
Earth-Two_Kenn
Heavyweight
Heavyweight
Posts: 504
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:13 pm
Location: Outer Chicagoland, Earth-Two
Contact:

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:49 pm

Black Mamba wrote:
Earth-Two_Kenn wrote:So my conclusion is that, per the H&V books, a yellow sun adds 16 STR and 11 STA to Kryptonians, and whomever built Supergirl goofed.

Good catch! Things like that I why I prefer spreadsheets. :)


Things like this are why I'm glad people have spreadsheets. It's also why living in my own head frightens me, and why I need to get a job, getting my career back on track.

Goldar wrote:By Jove, I think you have figured it out!


See above. I need a life.

greycrusader wrote:I would tend to agree Supergirl is a bit underpowered at PL 12, though that might fit the Linda Lee version or the younger Justice League Unlimited iteration of Supergirl. And remember-a lot of people are familiar with those versions, as Kara Zor-El was largely absent from comics for nearly twenty years.

As said before, while these are the "official and approved" character sheets, GMs and players will have different ideas about what the iconic builds should be, let alone versions hailing from particular comic book eras.


Goldar wrote:I wasn't looking at Power Girl as an adult, but I guess she is/could be considered one. And that leads to Supergirl's stats as being a teen-ager, so they would be less, in this case 2 less for each STR and STA. That makes sense. I don't think it was a goof, but carefully planned out to be 14/9 versus the 16/11 of the adults. She can certainly go up in the future as she matures.

Superboy is also a teen-ager and while only half-Kryptonian, should still "suffer" under the red sun with a decrease in STR and STA, but the exact amount is not known. Perhaps the same 14/9 as Supergirl since it is his half-Kryptonian (not human) physiology that gives Conner his superhuman stats.


greycrusader wrote:If I was using a teenage Kara Zor-El (anywhere from 15 to 19 years old) as Supergirl, I would stick actually do Strength 16 and Stamina 13 when under a yellow sun, with Str 0 and Sta 2 when powerless. The young Kara was athletic and fit, but had a typical slim teenage girl's physique, without much extra muscle.

Power Girl's body build has varied wildly between artists-when introduced (and drawn by the great Wally Wood) she was a curvier and much more voluptuous version of Kara; since then she has been portrayed as a typical generic superheroine, a brawny, massively busty and thick-set bruiser, a skinny woman with enormous breasts, and a compact female body builder.

Since I like latter two depictions best, I'd go with a Str 18/2 Powergirl, but probably drop her Sta to 11/2, as PG is often depicted as less durable than Earth One/0/New/Whatever Kryptonians. The bump up in Str would be accompanied by a slightly lower Fighting stat, to keep her PL the same.

All my best.


If I'd been editing H&V, I'd have made this Supergirl 16 STR, 11 STA, 15 TOU, lowered her accuracy, Dodge and Parry by 1 each to keep her PL 12. And made her powerless form 0 STR and 0 STA, just to keep her to that +14 +11 thing.

*My* Supergirl is an adult, working in daytime TV, living in Chicago, and is a PL 14. She's also the Earth-One counterpart to the Power Girl of my native Earth. ;)
Over eleven hundred DCA/M&M Character builds at http://www.rcuhero.net

User avatar
Goldar
Disciple
Disciple
Posts: 674
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:58 am

Re: Comparing Kryptonians

Postby Goldar » Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:30 am

I don't mind this waif of a Supergirl (starting) at STR 15 STA 10, but the original Kara from Pre-Crisis would have been much stronger. Anyways, here is how things are in my world:

Mature Supergirl down the road (20+ yrs old): STR 16 STA 13 PL14
Power Girl (really Power Woman): STR 17 STA 14 PL14. (Keeping STR in line with the other strong Kryptonian women such as Ursa.)

While not Kryptonians, I would also tweak:
Captain Marvel, Jr: STR 18 keep PL 14
Wonder Woman: STR 18 STA 15 (change lifting STR to +4) keep PL 15

While these characters are not yet profiled, here is my take on them:
Night Girl: STR 17 or possibly 18 STA 10-12 PL 13/14
Andromeda: STR 18 STA 14 PL 14/15


Return to “DC Adventures”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests