I have a question about arrays...

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Scapps
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I have a question about arrays...

Postby Scapps » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:57 am

So I was looking at Hal Jordan's array in the Hero's Handbook and I noticed something: For Mobile constructs, he has Create 12 with movable AND Dynamic. My question is this: Why is it only 2 pts? Even being part of the array, doesn't movable add one point as an alternate effect or am I missing something? Is it not an Alternate effect? And the same for his Force Bubble....

2nd, why does the array have 36 points next to it in parenthesis? If you add everything together excluding that number, the PP total equals 132, the correct total. But that number is there. Where does it belong? The array really costs 45 power points, right?

Any help would be appreciated!

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Greyman » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:50 am

Scapps wrote:So I was looking at Hal Jordan's array in the Hero's Handbook and I noticed something: For Mobile constructs, he has Create 12 with movable AND Dynamic. My question is this: Why is it only 2 pts? Even being part of the array, doesn't movable add one point as an alternate effect or am I missing something? Is it not an Alternate effect? And the same for his Force Bubble....
The two points are for the Alternate Effect, and Dynamic, extras, which are applied to array.

Moveable Create 12 has a point value of 36. This has already been paid for, so only the cost of the Alternate Effect and Dynamic extra was noted.
Scapps wrote:2nd, why does the array have 36 points next to it in parenthesis? If you add everything together excluding that number, the PP total equals 132, the correct total. But that number is there. Where does it belong? The array really costs 45 power points, right?
The array costs 36 points, plus 1 point for each additional Alternate Effect (4) and Dynamic (5) extra, for the total cost of 45 points.

The 36 points are the maximum point value each alternate effect can have. You only pay this cost once. It covers the price of one alternate effect, informally called the base effect. All other alternate effects are purchased via the Alternate Effect extra; one point each.

Normally you can have only one alternate effect available at one time. You can switch between alternate effects as a Free action, once per round. The Dynamic extras change this somewhat.

Dynamic alternate effects can share the array's power points. You may have multiple dynamic alternate effects available at one time, but each at lesser point values up to the base value of the array (the parenthically noted value).

Hal Jordan may configure his force array to enable him, for example, to have a Mobile Construct and Force Blast available at the same time, by splitting the 36 power points between them: Moveable Create 6 and Ranged Damage 9. Or perhaps set it to Moveable Create 4 and Ranged Damage 12, as needed. Thus he can attack with a weaker version of the force blast without dismissing his construction.

As a free action he can reconfigure his array into another arrangement. So if he needed to have a strong Force Bubble or something he could: "Divert power into the shields!"
Last edited by Greyman on Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby FuzzyBoots » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:51 am

Scapps wrote:So I was looking at Hal Jordan's array in the Hero's Handbook and I noticed something: For Mobile constructs, he has Create 12 with movable AND Dynamic. My question is this: Why is it only 2 pts? Even being part of the array, doesn't movable add one point as an alternate effect or am I missing something? Is it not an Alternate effect? And the same for his Force Bubble...

Within each slot of the array, you get X points to use, the value of the base power. That includes any Advantages other than Dynamic (which is considered to be part of the Alternate Effect cost). All Alternate Effects cost 1 pp of the cost of the total array. Adding dynamic to any effect, including the base power, adds 1 pp to the cost of the array. That cost is always applied on the level of the array (back in 2E, it was pointed out that the rules do allow "nested AEs", and 3E didn't change the rules to avoid it, but most GMs discourage it).

Scapps wrote:2nd, why does the array have 36 points next to it in parenthesis? If you add everything together excluding that number, the PP total equals 132, the correct total. But that number is there. Where does it belong? The array really costs 45 power points, right?

^_^ And this parallels the line above. This is kind of shorthand, indicating that the base power has 36 pp in it, so all AEs can use that many points. The base power actually costs 37 because 1 pp was tacked on for Dynamic on the base power. Yes, the total cost is 36 + 1 + 2 * 4 = 45 pp for the array.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Greyman » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:20 am

An array is a "swiss army knife" of power effects. Each blade (fork, spoon, bottle opener, cork screw, or whatever) is worth about the same value, but because you can only use one at a time, you only pay the cost once, plus a little extra for the versatility.

A dynamic array is one where, for a little more extra, you can use multiple blades at once. However, it's still awkward, so if you do you can't use them at full effect.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby FuzzyBoots » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:10 am

Greyman wrote:An array is a "swiss army knife" of power effects. Each blade (fork, spoon, bottle opener, cork screw, or whatever) is worth about the same value, but because you can only use one at a time, you only pay the cost once, plus a little extra for the versatility.

A dynamic array is one where, for a little more extra, you can use multiple blades at once. However, it's still awkward, so if you do you can't use them at full effect.

^_^ And, just to confuse things, there really is no such thing as a "dynamic array". Individual slots can be made dynamic (and often all slots are for the sake of convenience), but it's not always the case, and sometimes it saves points not to (especially in cases where a given slot takes up all of the points, and doesn't have a reduced cost version such as using Insubstantial, Concealment, or a list of Super-Senses).

Frankly, I don't understand why they didn't keep the 2E Ultimate Power structure of an Array to avoid the "you need a non PL-limited power if you want to be able to run more than one power at once at full power" situation, and for neatness. They still do it for builds, but the rules as written mean there always has to be a base power and then AEs.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Scapps » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:46 am

So why is it 36 points though? Why is that the points assigned to it? IS there a reason it isn't say another Power Point total?

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby FuzzyBoots » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:52 am

Scapps wrote:So why is it 36 points though? Why is that the points assigned to it? IS there a reason it isn't say another Power Point total?

The base power, the Blast, costs 36 pp.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Scapps » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:01 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:The base power, the Blast, costs 36 pp.


Ok, so do I choose which power is base? Or does it have to be be Blast? And what does that entail? Like what if I made Create the main power?

I am sorry I am so confused about this.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Arthur Eld » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:05 am

If all the powers cost the same, then you can pick whichever one you want as the base power, it doesn't really matter except in the loosest thematic sense. Especially if you start out with one power and then later add Alternate Effects to it. Since in this case, all of GL's powers in that array cost the same, it doesn't matter.

Otherwise, you use the power that costs the most and go from there.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Horsenhero » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:23 pm

Arthur Eld wrote:If all the powers cost the same, then you can pick whichever one you want as the base power, it doesn't really matter except in the loosest thematic sense. Especially if you start out with one power and then later add Alternate Effects to it. Since in this case, all of GL's powers in that array cost the same, it doesn't matter.

Otherwise, you use the power that costs the most and go from there.


Arthur Eld is correct, though, if it helps you focus, pick the power that best represents the characters' abilities as the primary power. Telekinetic? Pick Move Object as the primary power. It's also probably a good idea to have the primary power something that's PL capped, so you don't accidentally break caps on an Alternate Effect.

Despite my love for FuzzyBoots, he's a great guy and a cool person to game with, lamenting the differences between 2e and 3e simply muddies the waters in a case like this. It's best to ignore that part of a post and concentrate on the information which helps you with the mechanics you need.

Sorry, FB.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby FuzzyBoots » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:48 pm

Horsenhero wrote:Despite my love for FuzzyBoots, he's a great guy and a cool person to game with, lamenting the differences between 2e and 3e simply muddies the waters in a case like this. It's best to ignore that part of a post and concentrate on the information which helps you with the mechanics you need.

Sorry, FB.

No worries. I mainly added it as a caveat because people still throw the term "Array structure" around despite it no longer existing.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Scapps » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:56 pm

I appreciate everyone's help. You guys are really awesome and I thank you deeply.

I have another question: Do Force Constructs and Mobile Constructs not do damage? I see Hal's Force Blast does Ranged Damage 18, but what if he wanted to create a baseball bat to hit an enemy with? Does it do Damage equal to the Create Rank? Or is it all based off of the Force Blast? Or am I wrong and create does no damage?

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Horsenhero » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:07 pm

Created Objects can be used as improvised weapons by dropping them on characters, doing damage based on power rank. It should be noted that since a created object has a mass/volume equal to the rank of Create being used, a LOT of collateral damage could result from this. This is also why Create is generally PL capped.

Remember, a GL's "blast" can look like anything that does damage. It could simply be a burst of green energy, but it can also present itself as a baseball bat, boxing glove, charging mecha, giant number 2 pencil or whatever. Unless that effect lasts longer than the attack, the shape of the blast is thematic fluff.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Greyman » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:48 am

Horsenhero wrote:Created Objects can be used as improvised weapons by dropping them on characters, doing damage based on power rank. It should be noted that since a created object has a mass/volume equal to the rank of Create being used, a LOT of collateral damage could result from this. This is also why Create is generally PL capped.
Slight clarification:

Created Objects can be used as improvised weapons or deal damage by dropping them on characters, doing damage based on power rank (through its Toughness). It should be noted that since a created object has a maximum mass/volume equal to the rank of Create being used, a LOT of collateral damage could result from this (though that is not obligatory). This is also why the drop maneuver of Create is generally flat PL capped. As is the Trapping maneuver, which as it targets Dodge and is resisted by Dodge, is trade-off capped. Create itself is not necessarily so capped; depending on GM.

Dropping: The created object is treated as an Area Effect, covering the object's size. The target makes a Dodge resistance check to attempt to avoid all damage (rather than merely half, as normal). Damage is dependent on the object's Toughness. ("Dropping" includes throwing, slamming, or otherwise delivering the object into the target area.)

Improvised Weapon: You simply make a Close attack to deal Strength-based damage.

Trapping: You make a Ranged attack (targeting Dodge). The target may make a Dodge resistance check (against DC 10 + Create Rank) to avoid being trapped inside a hollow object. A trapped target is not technically immobile or otherwise afflicted.

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Re: I have a question about arrays...

Postby Scapps » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:14 am

So I was going through the site and I found this. it is a write for Hal Jordan PL 10, and it is actually done fairly well. But then i noticed two things that bother me. First is, his ring has TWO arrays. One for Ring Abilities and one for Force Manipulation. I don't think that should be. But that isn't the thing that irritates me. The thing that does is that in the Force Manipulation Array, his base power is Communication. Now he built the array correctly, but I am thinking he did it in order to save some Power Points. It wouldn't make sense to have that under the Ring Abilities array (if that is even allowed anyway), not Force Manipulation. It seems kinda shady. Am I correct in assuming that?

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?p=862280#p862280


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