Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

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gdeptula
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Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby gdeptula » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:22 am

First off, sorry if my question has already been asked and I just failed to locate it. I looked, I promise.

Anyway, I'm building a gadget-oriented character (more like TDK Batman) and don't quite understand why a "cutting torch" is built:

"Damage 1 (Heat) Linked to Weaken Objects Toughness 1"

From my understanding, since this item would used on an object, and since objects are considered defenseless, attacking it normally would result in bonus damage.

My question is: Why link Damage to Weaken if (correct me if I'm wrong), "Weaken, Affects Objects" is essentially the same thing?

Also, how would this mechanic work if this device was used to cut say.. A steel blast door (Toughness 9)?

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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:32 am

Basically, the Damage probably won't actually damage the target on the first attack, or the second, but with each attack, the target item gets easier and easier to break. Eventually the Damage portion will break the Weakened object, or else someone will do Damage in some other fashion, and finish the job.
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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Inscribed » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:13 am

I cannot imagine how the cutting torch is supposed to actually work. The Weaken part will only ever reduce the Thoughness by one, and then you are basically better of using a bat or something. Against a steel blast door, it would first reduce the Thoughness to 8, and then you would apply the 1 damage(Presumably with a +5 for critting, but don't ask me how that looks like in this situation.) against it. That's a DC of 21, so the door will eventually fail. But if you got 2 strength or have a bat or something, you could just use that. Damaging objects is a bit to easy.

Personally, I would make a reinforced door Impervious, and the cutting torch have Penetrating. Then a bat wouldn't do cow-dung, but a torch would eventually break it down.

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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby FuzzyBoots » Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:38 am

Part of the problem is that the cutting torch was originally built in 2E, when Drain (the original name for Weaken) was cumulative. Also under the useless category is the 1 pp Stamina drain for vampires, but that was always pretty worthless (since your opponent would gain it back in the next turn).

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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby MistahFixIt » Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:21 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:Part of the problem is that the cutting torch was originally built in 2E, when Drain (the original name for Weaken) was cumulative. Also under the useless category is the 1 pp Stamina drain for vampires, but that was always pretty worthless (since your opponent would gain it back in the next turn).


So in order to build a proper Cutting Torch in 3e, you need Linked: Damage 1 + Cumulative Weaken Toughness 1; effectively the same thing, but it costs more now.

One more thing in a laundry list of minor irritations 3e has given me. :|
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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Inscribed » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:48 pm

Well, there is no such thing as Cumulative for Weaken.
Or it is already kinda Cumulative, up to the Rank of the Weaken. It would not make sense for a Weaken with Cumulative. It would be more like an Extra that just removes the max limit for Weaken.

But if you did make a Cumulative Weaken like that, you could just skip the Damage anyway. Sure, it will take one turn per Toughness of the object you want to destroy, but once it reaches 0 Toughness it is destroyed. Making it cost the same as a normal Cutting Torch as well!

Edit: So really, all I would do with a cutting torch is making the damage Penetrating, and removing that pointless Weaken effect. That way, you will eventually cut through most objects, with only really though objects out of reach. Which makes sense to me, at least.

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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Laughingcrow » Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:56 am

You do not need Cumulative or anything else like that - since Objects do not recover Toughness lost to weaken without being repaired. I think the intention was that you could just keep on repeating the process. A person who turns to steel doesn't count as an object and would recover the Weaken next round, but that steel blast door does not. Only problem is that Weaken is only cumulative up to its rank, so it will not reduce Toughness by more than 1.

This is why it's linked to a Damage effect, so that a Toughness 9 steel door will become Toughness 8, and then would roll d20+8 against a DC 16 Damage effect. Every time it rolls below an 8 it will suffer an additional penalty.

I think this does adequately portray the time it takes to cut through thicker metal items, and it will rather quickly make rubble out of handcuffs or other simialr smaller objects.

The cutting torch will not affect anything with meaningful levels of Impervious, but then it's only a piece of equipment. You would need a specialized Safe-Cracker for it, which is likely Damage 1 (Penetrating 4) linked to Weaken Object Toughness 4 or somesuch.

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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby pawsplay » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:39 pm

Yeah, I'm pretty sure a powerful cutting torch would be Damage 2, Weaken 2. That would be enough to give objects an effective -2 on resistance checks, and the damage would be in line with a knife. The listed torch is probably some kind of miniature, more threatening to creme brulee than opponents or to bombproof safes. That example is from a utility belt, after all.
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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Kaimont » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:52 pm

If you look at "Damaging Objects" Object Toughness is for an inch (2.5cm for our metric-using friends). Doubling the thickness means adding +1 to it's Toughness. So cutting through a steel crowbar isn't too bad, with it's toughness of 9. But if you're facing a steel Bank Vault door, instead of the 9, you're looking at 12 (or so). Not as easy then. Honestly, would a cutting Torch even do anything to that thick a door? Let's see:

Damage 1 (DC 16)
Door's Toughness 12 (weakened to 11)
Door's Average Toughness Result (21)
Eventually, the Door's toughness will fail the DC 16 resistance check, and it'll take a cumulative -1 penalty until it gets repaired. Repeat until the door has a few more failures, and you're through.

Also, why do objects fall apart with three degrees of failure, but characters aren't incapacitated until four? Does the object roll Toughness against the Weaken Effect, or does it just take the full effect automatically?

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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Inscribed » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:54 am

Powers with Affects Object affect objects to max degree without any roll. So no rolls against the Weaken.

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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:46 am

Kaimont wrote:If you look at "Damaging Objects" Object Toughness is for an inch (2.5cm for our metric-using friends). Doubling the thickness means adding +1 to it's Toughness. So cutting through a steel crowbar isn't too bad, with it's toughness of 9. But if you're facing a steel Bank Vault door, instead of the 9, you're looking at 12 (or so). Not as easy then. Honestly, would a cutting Torch even do anything to that thick a door? Let's see:

Damage 1 (DC 16)
Door's Toughness 12 (weakened to 11)
Door's Average Toughness Result (21)
Eventually, the Door's toughness will fail the DC 16 resistance check, and it'll take a cumulative -1 penalty until it gets repaired. Repeat until the door has a few more failures, and you're through.

Also, why do objects fall apart with three degrees of failure, but characters aren't incapacitated until four? Does the object roll Toughness against the Weaken Effect, or does it just take the full effect automatically?


Also, remember, as an inanimate object, you can roll for a finishing attack and about half the time you'll be doing Damage 6, which means the door should break that much faster. Question, do the rules for Finishing Attacks also apply to the Weaken? And if they do is the maximum that can be weakened also bounced up by 5?
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Re: Damaging objects/Weaken, 3E

Postby Laughingcrow » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:07 am

Whether or not the bump up would also increase the max Weaken effect completely depends on the wording: +5 on the roll or +5 to the DC does not; only +5 to the rank of the effect. By the rules, it says:

If you choose to make your attack check normally (against DC 10), then a successful hit is treated as a critical hit, with a +5 circumstance bonus to the attack’s resistance DC. Additionally, if you hit with a damaging attack with intent to kill, and the target’s resistance check has three or more degrees of failure, the target dies immediately.


So that would only give +5 DC (so no max weaken) - which doesn't help at all when an inanimate object simply takes the maximum result, but if that happens to be 3 successes, it would collapse the object you are working on.


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