Why is Doomsday scary?

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Belial666
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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Belial666 » Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:53 am

Its outside of the intention of the rules

Nope. The rules don't have an intention other than helping people play a fun game.

turns the fun for everyone including me as the GM into a bit of a crawl

Maybe you don't find fun in it as a GM. What if the player does find fun in being smart and creative about beating opponents though?
There are those who play superheroes so they can go through crazy plots in a comicbook universe - and that is fine for them. There are also those who play superheroes so they can beat the villains by creatively using their superpowers and finally impose order in said comicbook universe so civilians can be safe from the crazy plots. And that is also fine - not everyone has the same preference and finds the same things fun.

as people try to add ex machina powers to Superman, rather then just have fun with it

Adding new powers is not the same as creatively using the existing powers. But both can be just as fun as only using the iconic powers - depending on the player's preference. And it is not as if the suggested effects (lobotomy, X-Ray brain fry) haven't actually being used in comics before.


Summing up:
#1: If you, as a GM, intend to limit the players in the way you believe the game is fun, then make sure they know what you consider fun in advance so they don't try for something that might ruin your fun or cause arguments.
#2: If you, as a player, intend to do something you consider fun but is potentially unusual, then make sure others know in advance so you don't ruin their fun or cause arguments.

(i.e. I've started asking GMs of games I apply to how much mobility, supersenses, and raw character power they are willing to allow before making an application and/or what is the scope of potential challenges so I know not to introduce things that might break their game)
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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Murkglow » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:14 am

Belial666 wrote:And it is not as if the suggested effects (lobotomy, X-Ray brain fry) haven't actually being used in comics before.


Again, no one had a problem with attempting to fry Doomsday's brains. The part people had a problem with was having it target will.

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Monolith » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:44 am

Murkglow wrote:
Belial666 wrote:And it is not as if the suggested effects (lobotomy, X-Ray brain fry) haven't actually being used in comics before.


Again, no one had a problem with attempting to fry Doomsday's brains. The part people had a problem with was having it target will.

And having it specifically targeting will simply because the player knows the target is weak in will. That's not about Superman trying to beat Doomsday with an interesting stunt. That's about a player using game knowledge to take advantage of game rules. A player shouldn't know if Doomsday is weak in will or immune to will entirely.

There are people who play M&M and there are people who play superheroes using M&M. Those aren't always the same people.

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:00 am

Belial666 wrote:Maybe you don't find fun in it as a GM. What if the player does find fun in being smart and creative about beating opponents though?


Not just as a GM Belial, even as a player. If i was in that game an you pulled that, yeah as someone else playing the game, i'd be pissed. Not because you were being smart, but because you'd be ruining the fun of actually playing the game, for the other players at the table. You'd be playing the system, to circumnaviagte the intention of the game.

The reason to play the game is the experience of playing the game, not just defeating the game. Its a group experience Bel & insisting on using the rule system to essentially cheat the role of Superman: Its got nothing to do with you being smart, its got to do with you trying to outsmart yourself. You've outsmarted yourself out of fun & cheated everyone else out of playing the game too.

Thats the fastest way to get un-invited from the table: Especially in a game like DCA, which was specifically built not to be a us versus them game like D&D, but instead is meant to be a shared gaming experience.

An keep in mind that the game is meant to be fun for everyone, if you specifically come along & try to game the system like that, the GM can turn around and literally do the same thing... Suddenly Doomsday is now the
unkillable god of war, who only gets stronger with your opposition. The last thing you ever want to do with DCA is to turn it into an oppositional game, because the GM will win every single time... An no one will have fun.
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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby JetstreamGW » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:07 am

Qemuel wrote:Congratulations! For defeating the Tarrasque, you're now a level 4 wizard, with 1 XP away from level 5. Make some wealth by opening a Bar and Grill on its back.


Bah! You'd be higher level than that if your DM ignores that stupid rule about never getting more than 1.9999 levels of XP at a time ;)

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Yagami Fire » Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:01 pm

Belial666 wrote:Maybe you don't find fun in it as a GM. What if the player does find fun in being smart and creative about beating opponents though?
There are those who play superheroes so they can go through crazy plots in a comicbook universe - and that is fine for them. There are also those who play superheroes so they can beat the villains by creatively using their superpowers and finally impose order in said comicbook universe so civilians can be safe from the crazy plots. And that is also fine - not everyone has the same preference and finds the same things fun.

Adding new powers is not the same as creatively using the existing powers. But both can be just as fun as only using the iconic powers - depending on the player's preference. And it is not as if the suggested effects (lobotomy, X-Ray brain fry) haven't actually being used in comics before.


Any GM with half a brain would not let that explanation allow stunting to a Will save. It doesn't even make any sense. It is in no way interacting with the characters will or mental abilities. It is literally damaging parts of their body.

Even still, your scenario is basically defining "fun" by "Whoever gets to win initiative gets to meta-game their way through the situation and end the entire conflict"...uh...great? Nice 4 minute session. See everyone next week?

Though I do find it funny that you support this usage of Supes (which makes no sense in or out of character nor considering power-stunt conventions or the intention of the various Defense descriptors) but weren't you also saying in another thread that Batman would get decimated in a fight against conventional armed forces based on him doing the stupidest, worst tactics possible?

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby ursinethemadbear » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:46 pm

If you want that lobotomy attack to be resisted by Will, than explain to me how force of will stops your brain tissue from being burned to ash. The attack could work as resisted by Toughness, maybe as Fortitude. If you wanted to model a basically unstoppable attack you could make it resisted by Dodge, but I do not see Superman's heat vision as being THAT powerful. It just does not make sense for a blast of heat destroying your frontal lobe to be thrown off by concentration or mental strength.
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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Mr Mole » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:08 am

ursinethemadbear wrote:It just does not make sense for a blast of heat destroying your frontal lobe to be thrown off by concentration or mental strength.

So... "Doomsday rolls to disbelieve" doesn't work for you...? :shock:

...I spend half my day rolling disbelief and hoping things will just go away, but I keep fumbling my roll... I think my dice are defective...

Doresh and Qemuel talking about the Allip vs Tarrasque scenario has me thinking old school... Sadly, I'd never considered it before... And it seems (without referencing a book or two) to pan out... Which is more-than-a-little disturbing... :roll: :mrgreen:

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Belial666 » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:21 am

Well, the books have truth serum - a drug that imposes chemical changes on the brain - as resisted by will. They have control chips - technology that physically affects the mind rather than psionics or magic as resistible by will. They have nets, bolos, hooks and chains and the like resisted by dodge (which means it is easier to tie up Doomsday and Darkseid than Batgirl) and they also have blinding light attacks and similar resisted by dodge too. Not to mention they got pretty much every freezing effect as resisted by dodge affliction, from freeze rays to Superman's arctic breath.

So, going according to the examples in the books, Superman trying to fry, irradiate or perform lobotomy on Doomsday? Will.
Superman stunting an entrapment affliction off his strength by, say, picking up some railroad rails or post signs or chains and tying Doomsday up? Resisted by Dodge.
Superman stunting blinding eyebeams off his heat vision? Resisted by Dodge.
Superman using his pretty standard arctic breath to freeze Doomsday? Resisted by Dodge.
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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Monolith » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:39 am

Belial666 wrote:So, going according to the examples in the books, Superman trying to fry, irradiate or perform lobotomy on Doomsday? Will.
Superman stunting an entrapment affliction off his strength by, say, picking up some railroad rails or post signs or chains and tying Doomsday up? Resisted by Dodge.
Superman stunting blinding eyebeams off his heat vision? Resisted by Dodge.
Superman using his pretty standard arctic breath to freeze Doomsday? Resisted by Dodge.

Most of these make better sense as having secondary save options. Entrapment might originally be resisted by dodge but after being entrapped dodge, damage, or strength is probably be what you'd use to save/escape; likewise for arctic breath. Heat vision eyebeams might be originally resisted by dodge but subsequent save attempts would probably be fort, as all the dodging in the world won't make you see better once your blind.

The lobotomy would need to penetrate Doomsday's flesh. Once done subsequent saves might use will rather then toughness, but not the original save.

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Murkglow » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:58 am

Belial666 wrote:Well, the books have truth serum - a drug that imposes chemical changes on the brain - as resisted by will. They have control chips - technology that physically affects the mind rather than psionics or magic as resistible by will.


Both are examples of an outside infulence attempting to manipulate the mind not burn it away... If you wanted to argue that the truth serum could also be resisted by Fort I would agree with you but in both cases will is perfectly logical while it is not when burning the brain away with heat vision.

Belial666 wrote:They have nets, bolos, hooks and chains and the like resisted by dodge (which means it is easier to tie up Doomsday and Darkseid than Batgirl) and they also have blinding light attacks and similar resisted by dodge too.


Snares are also resisted by Strength/Damage, so no Doomsday is not easier to tie up. As for Blinding light, the Dodge is to turn your eyes away. Again if you wanted to argue the Blinding light could also be resisted by Fort I would not disagree but again these are logical choices for resistences based on the descriptor while yours was not.

Belial666 wrote:Not to mention they got pretty much every freezing effect as resisted by dodge affliction, from freeze rays to Superman's arctic breath.


To not slip on the ice I suppose? I'm away from my books at the moment so I can't look them up but resisted cold would normally be Fortitude so I'm not sure what the examples you're pointing to are dealing with.

Belial666 wrote:So, going according to the examples in the books, Superman trying to fry, irradiate or perform lobotomy on Doomsday? Will.


Uh no. You didn't show anything like that.

Belial666 wrote:Superman stunting an entrapment affliction off his strength by, say, picking up some railroad rails or post signs or chains and tying Doomsday up? Resisted by Dodge.


Or Strength/Damage.

Belial666 wrote:Superman stunting blinding eyebeams off his heat vision? Resisted by Dodge.


Or Fort.

Belial666 wrote:Superman using his pretty standard arctic breath to freeze Doomsday? Resisted by Dodge.


Hard to say.

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby Yagami Fire » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:11 pm

Belial666 wrote:Well, the books have truth serum - a drug that imposes chemical changes on the brain - as resisted by will. They have control chips - technology that physically affects the mind rather than psionics or magic as resistible by will. They have nets, bolos, hooks and chains and the like resisted by dodge (which means it is easier to tie up Doomsday and Darkseid than Batgirl) and they also have blinding light attacks and similar resisted by dodge too. Not to mention they got pretty much every freezing effect as resisted by dodge affliction, from freeze rays to Superman's arctic breath.

So, going according to the examples in the books, Superman trying to fry, irradiate or perform lobotomy on Doomsday? Will.
Superman stunting an entrapment affliction off his strength by, say, picking up some railroad rails or post signs or chains and tying Doomsday up? Resisted by Dodge.
Superman stunting blinding eyebeams off his heat vision? Resisted by Dodge.
Superman using his pretty standard arctic breath to freeze Doomsday? Resisted by Dodge.


As already pointed out, your examples aren't correct...

Truth serum compels someone to tell the truth (fictional truth serum anyway)...and it can be overcome with amazing strength of will or mental tricks. For a ready example look at Batman in Sword of Azrael during his interrogation. That is very different from lobotomizing someone.

And yes, Doomsday is easier to tie up than Batgirl because Batgirl is harder to hit...however, it is MUCH easier for Doomsday to get out of being tied up by using his Strength to break his bonds than it is for Batgirl. This is entirely logical. The same is true for being frozen or the like.

Dodge for eyebeams blinding someone? Yes Dodge is to get your hand up or to turn your head or close your eyes...then Fortitude would be used to recover from it. Initial Dodge to resist then Fort to recover. This is logical.

Affliction is two part...it can be resisted and overcome by two entirely different saves. Will to resist a lobotomy still makes no sense as your are suggesting that Jean Grey would be more resistant to having her brain burned by heat vision than Doomsday would.

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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby JDRook » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:46 am

Yagami Fire wrote:Affliction is two part...it can be resisted and overcome by two entirely different saves. Will to resist a lobotomy still makes no sense as your are suggesting that Jean Grey would be more resistant to having her brain burned by heat vision than Doomsday would.

+1
The "Resist & Overcome" mechanic in Affliction where R&O differ is only briefly touched on in the Affliction section in the Handbook under Alternate Resistance, with Snare being the perfect example of an Affliction effect that doesn't commonly use Fort or Will at all (R = Dodge, O = Strength or Damage). These R&O variants are getting more prevalent in the Power Profiles, but it would be nice if the basic Affliction description made a bigger point about it.

In the case of the Lobotomy Beam, I would think it could be something like:

Affliction X (3rd Degree Transform, Lobotomized, R=Toughness, O=Will), 3rd Degree only, Cumulative, Concentration, Penetrating X - 3p per rank (2 per rank Affliction + 1 per rank Penetrating)

A close-range power for mid-range cost, even including the Penetrating to ignore whatever Impervious variant your game uses, although simply buying it at a very high rank (balanced by a low attack) would remove the need for Penetrating in most cases. Making it Cumulative helps it reach that challenging 3rd degree (the 'no Condtion' first and second degrees presumably describing the hole being burrowed into the skull), as does upping Duration to Concentration, although it also ties up the attacker's actions. You could also make it Grab-based to try and hold the target still. There could still be variations on what R&O should be, but considering descriptors and the long debate, the R should be physically-based, while O could conceivably be either Fort or Will.

This is not an easy power to use, and obviously would best be used as a power stunt.
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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby pawsplay » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:24 pm

Belial666 wrote:That depends. If Superman stunts off an instant lobotomy off his heat vision or something, then he can probably do it without hero points. Something along the lines of;

Ranged Will Affliction 18 (impaired+vulnerable/disabled+stunned, limited degree, extra condition, distracting)


Why would this be resisted by Will? It's not like the power of someone's mind is going to stop heat vision.
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Re: Why is Doomsday scary?

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:32 pm

pawsplay wrote:
Belial666 wrote:That depends. If Superman stunts off an instant lobotomy off his heat vision or something, then he can probably do it without hero points. Something along the lines of;

Ranged Will Affliction 18 (impaired+vulnerable/disabled+stunned, limited degree, extra condition, distracting)


Why would this be resisted by Will? It's not like the power of someone's mind is going to stop heat vision.


Not unless Doomsday has suddenly developed telekentic abilities... An even then, no. :lol:
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