So who's missing from H&V?

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby datalore » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:36 am

Flying Cobra wrote:Datalore- there is still a DC Universe book coming. Based on art that was being asked for, you might see one or two of the people you mentioned in it...



I know! Just want to point hat out, so people know the team is on the right page!

I was thinking about this the last few days, and noticed a few missing characters while watching the ends of Young Justice and Green Lantern: the Animated Series.

Thought I might break down a few characters from those shows who were from the comics....but not in the game (also knowing that more than a few will make it into Book #4...but a few won't!) Sadly, leaves out folks like Tye Longshadow or Razer & Aya, but at least these are all characters I'd like to see, and that at least are a little recognizable by the public....

Green Lantern: the Animated Series
Kilowog (GL), Ganthet, Sayd, Appa Ali Apsa, Zilius Zox (RL), Iolande (GL), Mogo (GL), Skallox (RL), Byth Rok, Salaak (GL), Anti-Monitor, Scar, Ch'p (GL), Chaselon (GL), Tomar-Re (GL), Brother Warth (BL), Ke'Haan (GL), Larvox (GL)

Young Justice
Zatara (John Zatara), Dubbilex, Dr. Amanda Spence, G-Gnomes, Queen Bee (Bialya), Brick, Mister Twister (Brom Stikk), Sportsmaster, Bibbo Bibbowski, Professor Ojo, Sensei, Black Spider, Hook (League of Assassins), Serling Roquette, Aquagirl (Tula), Vulko, Topo, Joan Garrick, Lagoon Boy, Rudy West, Mary West, Iris West-Allen, Lori Lemaris, Marvin White, Wendy Harris, Bumblebee, Guardian (Mal Duncan), Cat Grant, Icicle (Joar Makent), Devastation, Red Torpedo, Red Inferno,
Bette Kane (aka Flamebird), Tawky Tawny, Uncle Marvel (Dudley), Hamilton Hill, Icon, Rocket, Wotan, Red Volcano, Dragon King, Jason Bard, Serifan, Beautiful Dreamer, Big Bear, Vykin, Mark Moonrider, Ugly Manheim, Whisper A'Dare, Infinity Man, Harm, Rumaan Harjavti, Match, King Faraday, Jack Haly, Glorious Godfrey, Catherine Cobert, Sardath, Alanna, Black Beetle, Appellexians, Neutron, Static, Thomas Kalmaku, The Reach, L-Ron, Burton Thompson (S.T.A.R. Labs), the Tribune

Batman: Brave & the Bold
Clock King, Merlin (wizard), King Tut, False-Face, Kite-Man, Slug (close to Sleez), B'Wana Beast, Kamandi, Dr. Camus, Jarvis Kord, G'Nort (GL), Cavalier, Fox (Terrible Trio), Shark (Terrible Trio), Vulture (Terrible Trio), Gordanians, Astaroth, Crazy-Quilt, Tweedledee, Tweedledum, Punch, Jewelee, Kru'll (close to King Kull), Ace the Bat-Hound, Zebra Man, Tiger Shark, Copperhead (original), Calendar Man, Bat-Mite, Tornado Tyrant, Mongal, Steppenwolf, Lashina, Stompa, Tuftan,
Caesar, Prof. Nichols, Ramjam, Dove (Don Hall), General Kafka, Global Protection Agency, Polka Dot Man, Typhon (Lord of Chaos), Woozy Winks, Fisherman, Enemy Ace, Professor Zee, Shaggy Man, Faceless Hunter from Saturn, Gas Gang, Dr Double X, Mirror Man, Atomic Man, Cluemaster, Dr. No-Face, Eraser, Mr. Camera, Signalman, Spinner, Zodiac Master, Batman of Zur-En-Arrh, Rohtul, Gorilla Boss of Gotham, Cinnamon, General Zahl, Arsenal (Nicholas Galtry), Animal-Vegetable-Mineral Man, Dr. Tyme, Mr. 103, Black Orchid (Susan Linden-Thorne), Haunted Tank, Madniks (close to Mad Men), Firefly, Rainbow Creature, Ten-Eyed Man, Batwoman (Kathy Kane), G.I. Robot, Mantis, Oom the Mighty, Mr. Atom, Crocodile Man, Space Ranger, Qwardians, Ultra the Multi-Alien, Professor Pyg,
Mr. Toad, Monocle, Virman Vundabar, Weeper, Bulletman, Angle Man, Dr. Poison, Bouncer, Bat-Ape, Baroness Paula Von Gunther, Javelin, Vicki Vale, El Gar-Kur,
Hellgrammite, Cannoneer, Thinker (original), El Gaucho, Musketeer, Legionnaire, Knight, Ranger, Wingman, Creature Commandos

Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes
Lightning Lord, Matter-Eater Lad, Mordru (LSH), Tyr, Hunter, Ron-Karr, Spider-Girl, Esper Lass, Color Kid, Fire Lad, Stone Boy, Porcupine Pete, Blok, Infectious Lass, Starfinger, Ferro Lad, Sun-Eater, Controllers, Imperiax, Lightning Lass/Light Lass/Sparx, Nemesis Kid, Grimbor, Calamity King, White Witch, Dark Circle

Teen Titans
Thunder & Lightning (alien brothers), Mad Mod, Wildebeest, Hot Spot (aka Joto), Mas, Menos, Madame Rogue, Kole, Gnarrk, Ding Dong Daddy, Pantha,
Herald (Mal Duncan)

Justice League Unlimited
White Martians, Doctor Destiny, Katma Tui (GL), Steel (Hank Heywood III), Crimson Fox, Rocket Red (Dmitri, Apokolips armor), Starman (Prince Gavyn), Johnny Thunder & Thunderbolt, Vibe, Waverider, Brimstone, KGBeast, Hephaestus, Emil Hamilton, Arisia Rrab (GL), Stel (GL), Bat Lash, El Diablo (old west), Pow-Wow Smith, Bloodsport, Electrocutioner, Tracer, Tala, Hermes, Black Mass, Crowbar, Fastball, Shatterfist, Ron Troupe, Dr. Cyber, Puzzler, Rampage, Sonar (Bito), Adversary, Dreamslayer, Gorgon, Lord Havoc, Khunds, Deimos (of Skartaris), Viking Prince, Dr. Alchemy, Fiddler, Mr. Element, Turtle Man, Trickster (James Jesse), Solovar, Dr. Spectro, Dummy, Goldface, Lady Lunar, Livewire (Leslie), Nightfall, Puppeteer, Taj Ze, Spy Smasher (Alan), Captain Nazi, Big Words,
Scrapper, Tommy Tompkins, Hellhound, Hath-Set, Katar Hol, Chay-Ara Hol, Kanto, Bernadeth, Mad Harriet

Superman: the Animated Series
Lana Lang, Maxima

Batman: The Animated Series
Harvey Bullock, Maxie Zeus


True, all of these aren't THE most important characters, but would be nice as they've been around.

Also makes me think of a few that are missing that haven't made the animation boards that I'd like (Lilith Clay/Omen, Brainwave, Triumph, Golden Glider, Big Sir & Multi-Man of the Injustice League, Deadline & Chiller of the Killer Elite, the green aquatic Siren and Red Panzer from Tartarus) or even maybe getting Golden Age versions of Superman, Batman, Robin, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Speedy, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Robotman, Sargon and Luthor (just because).

I'm greatful for what we get, but also want more.

(Yes, wouldn't bother me at all to get the full All-Star Squadron and Legion of Super-Heroes (along with the Subs, the Wanderers and the Heroes of Lallor), as well as the Legion of Super-Villains and the complete Society of Super-Villains...but I know that's not practical. I do think enough will be left off to invite at least ONE more book...)

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:38 am

The animated universe characters would be another license, entirely. It is actually the license I wish Green Ronin would have gotten. We could have had a Young Justice sourcebook and a JL/JLU sourcebook, and so on. :)
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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby datalore » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:38 am

Black Mamba wrote:I have never worked with DC on a RPG issue but I have worked with them for other products using their IP and I can tell you it is not uncommon for DC to take a several weeks to a month to get back to you even on a relatively minor issue. They work at their own pace; and depending on who you get that pace can be fast or snail-like.



It does take a ton of time. I remember the past two attempts at gaming, mostly looking at it from the outside...and how much time it took between books.

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby datalore » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:39 am

Black Mamba wrote:The animated universe characters would be another license, entirely. It is actually the license I wish Green Ronin would have gotten. We could have had a Young Justice sourcebook and a JL/JLU sourcebook, and so on. :)



I agree!

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby datalore » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:51 am

Oh, and taking this down to a (slightly) more managable list that I'd like to see (and knowing that Icon, Static and Rocket are Milestone and we can't get...sigh...)

Green Lantern: the Animated Series
Kilowog (GL), Ganthet, Sayd, Appa Ali Apsa, Zilius Zox (RL), Mogo (GL), Byth Rok, Salaak (GL), Anti-Monitor, Ch'p (GL), Chaselon (GL), Tomar-Re (GL), Brother Warth (BL)

Young Justice
Zatara (John Zatara), Dubbilex, Queen Bee (Bialya), Brick, Sportsmaster, Bibbo Bibbowski, Professor Ojo, Sensei, Black Spider, Serling Roquette, Aquagirl (Tula), Vulko, Topo, Lagoon Boy, Iris West-Allen, Lori Lemaris, Bumblebee, Guardian (Mal Duncan), Cat Grant, Icicle (Joar Makent), Devastation, Red Torpedo, Red Inferno, Bette Kane (aka Flamebird), Tawky Tawny, Uncle Marvel (Dudley), Wotan, Red Volcano, Dragon King,Serifan, Beautiful Dreamer, Big Bear, Vykin, Mark Moonrider, Ugly Manheim, Infinity Man, Harm, Rumaan Harjavti, Match, King Faraday, Glorious Godfrey, Catherine Cobert, Sardath, Alanna, Black Beetle, Appellexians, Neutron, Thomas Kalmaku, The Reach, L-Ron

Batman: Brave & the Bold
Clock King, Kite-Man, Slug (close to Sleez), B'Wana Beast, Kamandi, Cavalier, Gordanians, Astaroth, Crazy-Quilt, Punch, Jewelee, Kru'll (close to King Kull), Ace the Bat-Hound, Zebra Man, Copperhead (original), Calendar Man, Bat-Mite, Tornado Tyrant, Mongal, Steppenwolf, Lashina, Stompa, Dove (Don Hall), Polka Dot Man, Typhon (Lord of Chaos), Woozy Winks, Fisherman, Enemy Ace, Shaggy Man, Faceless Hunter from Saturn, Gas Gang, Dr Double X, Mirror Man, Cluemaster, Signalman, Cinnamon, General Zahl, Arsenal (Nicholas Galtry), Animal-Vegetable-Mineral Man, Dr. Tyme, Mr. 103, Black Orchid (Susan Linden-Thorne), Haunted Tank, Madniks (close to Mad Men), Firefly, Ten-Eyed Man, Batwoman (Kathy Kane), G.I. Robot, Mantis, Oom the Mighty, Mr. Atom, Space Ranger, Qwardians, Ultra the Multi-Alien, Monocle, Virman Vundabar, Weeper, Bulletman, Angle Man, Dr. Poison, Bat-Ape, Baroness Paula Von Gunther, Javelin, Vicki Vale,
Hellgrammite, Thinker (original), El Gaucho, Musketeer, Legionnaire, Knight, Ranger, Wingman, Creature Commandos

Superman and the Legion of Super-Heroes
Lightning Lord, Matter-Eater Lad, Mordru (LSH), Tyr, Hunter, Ron-Karr, Spider-Girl, Esper Lass, Color Kid, Fire Lad, Stone Boy, Porcupine Pete, Blok, Infectious Lass, Starfinger, Ferro Lad, Sun-Eater, Controllers, Imperiax, Lightning Lass/Light Lass/Sparx, Nemesis Kid, Grimbor, White Witch, Dark Circle

Teen Titans
Thunder & Lightning (alien brothers), Mad Mod, Wildebeest, Hot Spot (aka Joto), Madame Rogue, Kole, Gnarrk, Pantha, Herald (Mal Duncan)

Justice League Unlimited
White Martians, Doctor Destiny, Katma Tui (GL), Steel (Hank Heywood III), Crimson Fox, Rocket Red (Dmitri, Apokolips armor), Starman (Prince Gavyn), Johnny Thunder & Thunderbolt, Vibe, Waverider, Brimstone, KGBeast, Emil Hamilton, Arisia Rrab (GL), Stel (GL), Bat Lash, El Diablo (old west), Pow-Wow Smith, Bloodsport, Electrocutioner, Tracer, Tala, Hermes, Black Mass, Crowbar, Fastball, Shatterfist, Ron Troupe, Dr. Cyber, Rampage, Sonar (Bito), Dreamslayer, Gorgon, Lord Havoc, Khunds, Deimos (of Skartaris), Viking Prince, Dr. Alchemy, Fiddler, Mr. Element, Turtle Man, Trickster (James Jesse), Solovar, Dr. Spectro, Dummy, Goldface, Lady Lunar, Livewire (Leslie), Nightfall, Puppeteer, Taj Ze, Spy Smasher (Alan), Captain Nazi, Big Words, Scrapper, Tommy Tompkins, Hellhound, Hath-Set, Kanto, Bernadeth, Mad Harriet

Superman: the Animated Series
Lana Lang, Maxima

Batman: The Animated Series
Harvey Bullock, Maxie Zeus


Lilith Clay/Omen, Brainwave, Triumph, Golden Glider, Night Girl, Big Sir & Multi-Man of the Injustice League, Deadline & Chiller of the Killer Elite, the green aquatic Siren and Red Panzer from Tartarus, Manhunter (Mark Shaw), Starman (Will Payton), or even maybe getting Golden Age versions of Superman, Batman, Robin, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Speedy, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Robotman, Sargon and Luthor (just because).

And all the L.E.G.I.O.N. and R.E.B.E.L.S. as well! Wouldn't mind Power Company members, Primal Force members, and Ravers (not to mention more of the dead Suicide Squad members...hey, even dead, there's always a Black Power Ring!).

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby Goldar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:56 am

Black Mamba wrote:I think when DC is vetting the material they are looking at continuity and story issues rather than mechanical issues. I doubt anyone doing the vetting knows the difference between PL 10 and PL 12. They are simply looking at backgrounds, Power descriptions, Complication wording, and the like - as well as looking at the art requests and determining if it really does make sense to use that picture within the context of the text in that area.

I also believe that gathering the request artwork takes a considerable amount of time. Said artwork needs to be found, checked off, checked for color, scanned, and then sent to Green Ronin. I did not count it but I would imagine a book like H&V #1 has somewhere between 150 and 200 pieces of art in it. It takes time to find and send all of that.

I have never worked with DC on a RPG issue but I have worked with them for other products using their IP and I can tell you it is not uncommon for DC to take a several weeks to a month to get back to you even on a relatively minor issue. They work at their own pace; and depending on who you get that pace can be fast or snail-like.


@Black Mamba: Well it may be that DC does not vet between PL10 and PL12, but they do review something about DCA. And that something takes time. I was defending my statement that DC does get involved and that DC does take time to request changes, which again, takes time. In addition, E-2Kenn had stated that any stats from GR would be guesswork--I don't look at it that way since the book is done by GR and DC. To me, they are official builds. Then Doresh decided to state that DC does not have people working on this project and that is simply a wrong statement. And even if DC is not going over every stat block, as you stated, they are looking at power descriptions, so yeah, these are official builds, stats, histories, what have you. DC wants things as correct as possible to whatever depth they are reviewing it.

I know gathering artwork can take quite some time, but for book #3 (H&V Vol 2) and book#4 (Universe Book), many fans including scc and Flying Cobra and others found the majority of the artwork in record time with amazing pics! For example, the Universe Book, the process of artwork gathering by fans began on 12-14-12 and ended on 01-28-13, approximately 6 weeks, as per JonL's post on 01-28-13 that all artwork had been gathered and plotted into a rough layout form. Prior to 12-14-12, GR had located all the other artwork that they could find and had done other work on the book. So even with the artwork found and formatted, it is now almost 2 months later. But these are DC's characters and so they should review things as they see fit. As I had previously mentioned, DC does review things and this can take some time.

So since you and I are stating the same thing, I not sure what the problem is? I would have thought there would be a problem with someone saying these are not official builds or that DC is not reviewing things on this project. But not that I am stating the same thing you are that DC does review something on DCA and that process takes time. :)



Hi datalore. Glad to have your input.

Wow, you have quite some list, maybe even more characters than on mine! Some of the characters you have listed I have also listed in my past posts on this thread, but from the comics, not the TV cartoons, as I don't think those characters will be covered in this series.

From your lists, here are some of the ones we both want to see:
Bumblebee, Lilith lay (Omen), Zatara, Flamebird Betty Kane, Wotan, Female Furies, Spidergirl, Blok, Imeriex, White Witch/Black Witch, Pantha, Thunderbolt, Maxima, Brainwave 1 (and 2), Night Girl, Golden Glider, Mongal, Sargon and (Telepath from ) L.E.G.I.O.N.

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby Black Mamba » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:06 pm

Goldar wrote:I know gathering artwork can take quite some time, but for book #3 (H&V Vol 2) and book#4 (Universe Book), many fans including scc and Flying Cobra and others found the majority of the artwork in record time with amazing pics! For example, the Universe Book, the process of artwork gathering by fans began on 12-14-12 and ended on 01-28-13, approximately 6 weeks, as per JonL's post on 01-28-13 that all artwork had been gathered and plotted into a rough layout form. Prior to 12-14-12, GR had located all the other artwork that they could find and had done other work on the book. So even with the artwork found and formatted, it is now almost 2 months later. But these are DC's characters and so they should review things as they see fit. As I had previously mentioned, DC does review things and this can take some time.

I think you are confused about gathering artwork. Yes, the fans made suggestions but someone at DC still needs to physically get the actual material - and in some cases they need to talk to the original artists as well. It is not that DC needs specific permission to use the artwork, as they own it, but they will often check with their more popular artists to make sure they do not have a problem with the art being used by an outside party. After all, many artists sell their original panels at conventions or online.

I also recall that in the recent podcast Jon stated they did not have all the artwork for the new book yet, as they were waiting for DC to vet the material and approve the art choices. So it is not always as clear-cut as you want to make it out to be, above. :)

So since you and I are stating the same thing, I not sure what the problem is? I would have thought there would be a problem with someone saying these are not official builds or that DC is not reviewing things on this project. But not that I am stating the same thing you are that DC does review something on DCA and that process takes time. :)

I do not believe we have any "problem." I am simply saying things are not as smooth or technical as you seem to want to believe. I have worked with Marvel, and DC, and Disney, and many other large IPs over the years and seldom does it function smoothly or efficiently. :)
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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby datalore » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:22 pm

It all started with Clock King (and his involvement with the Injustice League/Justice League Antarctica/Suicide Squad), and an article for my LCS (http://www.backtothepast.tv/more-cool-s ... -villains/)...and knowing we don't have him listed as an official character (and I remembered he was in Batman: Brave & the Bold, so not quite a second stinger....).

The thought resurfaced as I was watching the finales of GL & YJ.

Not really looking for the animated stats, but DCU stats (just ALSO a fan of the various animated shows...Smallville and Arrow as well!).

Mostly, I want to be able to overwhelm the heroes with villains (like Villains United, Salvation Run, even Joker's Last Laugh....).

I'm hoping Clock King makes it (maybe under Sonar, as Bito recruited the Injustice League, as well as the Global Guardians...and even Elongated Man foes' Eurocrime!...for Justice League Europe #49-50).


I guess it just frustrates me not getting a "complete set"....we have most of Tartarus (Vandal Savage, Cheshire, Grodd, Lady Vic), but not Red Panzer or Siren (green aquatic lady), or the Killer Elite (have: Bolt, Deadshot and Merlyn, but not Chiller or Deadline). And don't get me started on not having Manhunter Mark Shaw or the rest of the Power Company, or not even having one set of any of the Seven Soldiers of Victory (http://www.backtothepast.tv/more-cool-s ... f-victory/ but enough shameless plugging...)

I think GR is doing a good job, but are a little inconsistent (we get the original Bolt, but the Terror Titans version of Copperhead. So, it just makes me want the rest of the Terror Titans...AND the Secret Society version of Copperhead. Ditto for people like the Trickster, and I know they were going for archtypes, but need a few versions of Hawkman....).

Again, part is space issues, part is DC's....overall it is a good product, and that's why I wish there would be more than four books!

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby datalore » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:38 pm

Goldar wrote:Wow, you have quite some list, maybe even more characters than on mine! Some of the characters you have listed I have also listed in my past posts on this thread, but from the comics, not the TV cartoons, as I don't think those characters will be covered in this series.

From your lists, here are some of the ones we both want to see:
Bumblebee, Lilith Clay (Omen), Zatara, Flamebird Betty Kane, Wotan, Female Furies, Spidergirl, Blok, Imperiex, White Witch/Black Witch, Pantha, Thunderbolt, Maxima, Brainwave 1 (and 2), Night Girl, Golden Glider, Mongal, Sargon and (Telepath from ) L.E.G.I.O.N.



Back at ya, goldar!

Like I've said, it's not that I'm not happy with what we are getting, but I just want more! I guess I also want to get some characters spread over time (a few from all eras, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s!).

I remember seeing Kamandi, Bat Lash and a few others in a couple of the crowd sourcing posts (including Time Commander, which also leads to Clock King...yes, he gives me OCDs!)...

And, I also think about characters I have little want for (yes, I'll admit it is Vibe!)....but, between the time Book 4 was submitted and now, Vibe has his own series...so, I bet there is some Vibe fan out there who will be displeased there are no stats him!

I remember the heartbreak when Mayfair didn't give us there Who's Who #4 (and believe me, even with ALL those characters over all the books they published, I wanted more!).

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby Goldar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:44 pm

datalore wrote: I guess it just frustrates me not getting a "complete set"....we have most of Tartarus (Vandal Savage, Cheshire, Grodd, Lady Vic), but not Red Panzer or Siren (green aquatic lady), or the Killer Elite (have: Bolt, Deadshot and Merlyn, but not Chiller or Deadline). And don't get me started on not having Manhunter Mark Shaw or the rest of the Power Company, or not even having one set of any of the Seven Soldiers of Victory

I think GR is doing a good job, but are a little inconsistent (we get the original Bolt, but the Terror Titans version of Copperhead. So, it just makes me want the rest of the Terror Titans...AND the Secret Society version of Copperhead. Ditto for people like the Trickster, and I know they were going for archtypes, but need a few versions of Hawkman........overall it is a good product, and that's why I wish there would be more than four books!


Yeah, many of us wish that there could be way more than 4 books!

With over 75 yrs of publication history however, there is no way they could give us a "complete set", especially for every character, even those appearing only once say in the 1930's. And some characters are just support for others and there are hundreds if not thousands of them. But I think you mean like the complete set of characters for a team that has been featured, or profile all those who had the same character name that has been profiled (like Liberty Belle and Fury--give us both sets of heroines, not just one). Maybe they will appear in the Universe Book.

However, we are going to get a goodly portion of hero/villain characters in these 4 books, and mostly the mainstreamers, the ones who have appeared most often/in recent times/impact within the DCU, etc. So, while we may have to give up a few of our favorites, Hopefully we should be getting the majority of our favorites covered!

I did like your idea of the 1940's versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, etc, because their abilities were sure to be different, but with all the New DCU and stuff, not sure about the status on the wartime heroes and if they were really there in the new version.

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:54 pm

Goldar wrote:In addition, E-2Kenn had stated that any stats from GR would be guesswork--I don't look at it that way since the book is done by GR and DC. To me, they are official builds.


They are official builds... of characters who written by writers and editors who, more often than not, do not have a background in science. Putting a character down into a collection of enumerated abilities means trying to quantify the character. The characters aren't quantified by the folks at DC. The folks at DC change the characters' abilities with the flourish of a pen. And the folks at Green Ronin have had the monumental task of trying to quantify the DC Universe, despite the lack of consistency. And they've done a remarkable job. Even if I'm right that they've dropped the ball about 5% of the time, considering their task, succeeding 95% of the time is incredible.

But it's still guesswork. Informed guesswork, but guesswork none the less. That's why I'm glad for the rules for power stunts, because that allows explanations for the scenes that openly contradict some feats from the comics. For instance, in "Final Crisis: Requiem" Superman lifts an entire Egyptian pyramid and flies it to Mars. Superman's official lifting strength of 23 isn't enough to lift an Egyptian pyramid. Assuming the Pyramid doesn't collapse (because it's comics, not reality), it still would have a weight around 27 ranks. So on paper, the DC approved official Superman write-up by Green Ronin is inaccurate compared to a recent DC Comic book. Which is fine, and can be worked around. But I doubt whichever of the four converted Superman actually looked at several Superman comics, did the math, and came up with a number. It is far more likely that the converter said "I need a really high number for Superman's strength, but I need to balance against his accuracy to keep him PL 15, so I'll pick STR 19 and add some Power Lifting."
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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby datalore » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:57 pm

I'm just trying to think of ways GR could justify doing an additional book (or three).

Wouldn't even mind a "New 52" book...if we could also get a pre-Crisis book too (or something based around events...).

I mean, true, I doubt I'll get Minister Blizzard, Jason Bard, or Lightning Master...or that I'd even need them, but, you never know.

True, they've gotten the major players, but I wouldn't mind delving further into the lessers...it can be all the generals, we need some sergeants too! (Yes, I'm overjoyed that at least they were looking on Sgt. Rock and the Unknown Soldier....but is it wrong to want Mdmse. Marie and Gravedigger too?)

And, after all, Crisis on Infinite Earths only had about 700 characters...that wouldn't take up more than two books, right? :D

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby Goldar » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:04 pm

@E-2Kenn: I see your point. Very good example sited. And I agree GR did a remarkable job with figuring it all out.


datalore wrote:I'm just trying to think of ways GR could justify doing an additional book (or three).

And, after all, Crisis on Infinite Earths only had about 700 characters...that wouldn't take up more than two books, right? :D


:lol:

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Re: So who's missing from H&V?

Postby Doresh » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:06 am

Goldar wrote:With J'onn's fire weakness, I thought I had read it is really all in his mind, so if that is the case, his fear or perceptions of fear can change from situation to situation. As for Donna Troy, who is to say that the changes made to her character and origin were not planned? Remember, even from her beginning, Donna's last name was "Troy" which later played a massive part of the Titans of Myth and her second codename of Troia. Coincidence or inconsistancy? I think not. And even if they were not all planned originally, the writers very cleverly tied everything together exceptionally well, in my opinion, down to not forgetting the mirror-image-come-to-life of Wonder Woman, which is really Donna Troy! Very much explains why Donna looks so much like Diana, why her powers so closely mirror Diana's and where Donna's powers come from, as well! Donna is one of my favorite characters and I am amazingly pleased at her origin, history and powers, especially as presented in the DCA!!


Donna Troy spend at least her first 8 years as "Wonder Girl" only, without any real name. Her last name "Troy" was probably chosen because it's Greek.
This was also in 1969. I doubt DC was planning to have this name play an important role almost 15 years later.

The "mirror origin" also had her being mistaken for the actual Wonder Woman by Dark Angel, who ended up curses her to several different lifes of mysery. Well, at least that's still better than her original origin of "Another writer thought that younger Wonder Woman from the past seen in one comic issue was Wonder Woman's regular side-kick" :mrgreen:


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