New GM, asking for advice

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby TheSander » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:32 am

saint_matthew wrote:
TheSander wrote:Still reading through the Powers section, and just for curiousity, what kind of descriptor would you apply to Remote Sensing? Because beyond magical scrying I'm coming up with a blank.


- Telepathic powers where you look through the eyes of another person
- Hacking/accessing video feeds from different cameras
- A limited form of Astral Projection
- Looking through Mirrors like DC's Mirror Master does.

Does that help any?

Monolith wrote:I believe the marvel comics Falcon used to be able to see through his hawk, Redwing's eyes. That was a mutant power.


Yes he could but it wasn't a mutant power, it was the result of being effected by the cosmic cube.

Once again thanks, everyone is being really helpful.

Also, this may be my D&D experience speaking, but I can't help but find it wierd that the Charge action gives a penalty to attack, rather than a bonus.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby TheSander » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:34 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
TheSander wrote:
digitalangel wrote:Array:
<main power> 19 PPS + 1 PP because I want it to be dynamic = 20PP
AE1: not dynamic, so up to 20PPs to spend on the AE and still be legal since <main power> cost 20PP
AE2: dynamic power = 1PP, so 19 PPs left to spend on AE2 to stay within the PP limits based on <Main power>
AE3: same as AE2 <=19 PP power + 1 PP for dynamic <= 20PP

Total array cost = 23 (20 for <main power> + 3 AEs)

So the character could have AE1 active, but none of the others since AE1 is not dynamic.


I'm not sure I understand the pricing. So the final price for an array is (main power cost)+AE? And the alternate effects themselves are not counted in it?

Mainly correct. Digital Angel is wrong that the non-dynamic power would have 20 PP to play with, though. So the cost is the base power (here 19) plus the points spent on making alternate powers or making powers dynamic. It costs 1 PP to create an Alternate Effect. It costs 1 PP to make an Alternate Effect or the base effect Dynamic. So this one would be 19 + 3 (3 Alternate Effects) + 3 (base effect and 2 AEs are Dynamic). Once per turn, you can either choose to allocate all points to your non-Dynamic AE or choose to split the points among your Dynamic AEs. Note that Extras, Flaws, and Quirks always apply to any Dynamic power which has any ranks active, so a flat Extra on the power will impose a minimum number of PP spent.

While it dates back to 2E, and includes a few concepts that were not ported to 3E, I still recommend Delemental's summary of how Arrays and Alternate Powers work.

Thanks for the clarification and the link.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:27 am

TheSander wrote:Also, this may be my D&D experience speaking, but I can't help but find it wierd that the Charge action gives a penalty to attack, rather than a bonus.

2E had it give a bonus to attack and a commensurate penalty to defense (which makes sense to me, honestly). I suspect that part of it is that the charge also gives you the benefit of letting you take both a Move and a Standard action (moving 30 feet and attacking) as a Standard action, especially handy when you're Dazed.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby saint_matthew » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:34 am

TheSander wrote:Also, this may be my D&D experience speaking, but I can't help but find it wierd that the Charge action gives a penalty to attack, rather than a bonus.


LOL, I've been running & playing 3E for a while & I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a Charge Attack.
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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:38 am

Regarding the pricing of arrays, the easiest way to handle it is to remember that making an Alternate Effect, or making a power Dynamic, is considered to be spending points outside of the power (kind of like using a skill point to raise the attack bonus of a single power by 2 instead of buying Accurate), so it never affects the amount of points "spent" on the power.

There's a minor caveat regarding nested AEs, something unaddressed in the 2E or 3E books, but conditionally approved in the 2E ORQ forums by Steve Kenson (i.e. he thinks it makes sense, but it's up to individual GMs to decide whether any particular example makes sense). To give a mildly contrived example, let's say that you have someone who has a rifle and a grenade launcher. They make one an AE of the other to make it cheaper (since they'd never use both at once):
Rifle (Blast 6) [12 PP]
AE: Grenade Launcher (Blast 4, Burst Area) [1 PP for 12 PP of powers]

Now later on, they make their gun Accurate and add Improved Aim (e.g., adding a scope) as an Advantage, adding another 2 PP to that power. The grenades are OK as they are, except that they'd like to be able to launch other kinds of grenades. They could buy additional AEs for each grenade type, but why do that when they don't need 14 PP of powers in each grenade? So instead, they do the following:
Scoped Rifle (Blast 6, Improved Aim, Accurate) [14 PP]
AE: Grenade Launcher (Blast 4, Burst Area) [1 PP for 12 PP of powers + 2 AEs]
AE: AE: Smoke Grenade (12 PP of Obscure) [cost is 1 PP in the Grenade Launcher Power]
AE: AE: Flashbang Grenade (12 PP of Visual/Auditory Dazzle) [cost is 1 PP in the Grenade Launcher Power]

it's ultimately up to the GM, but I've known many of them to allow something like the above. Now if you tried to chain a bunch of items so that, say, you spent 21 PP and had a 20 PP power with an AE with a 19 PP power with an AE with a 18 PP power with an AE with a 17 PP power, etc, you'd be stomped down pretty quickly.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:40 am

saint_matthew wrote:LOL, I've been running & playing 3E for a while & I don't think I've ever seen anyone use a Charge Attack.

I used to see it fairly frequently in 2E, but part of that was because it effectively gave you a +2/-2 All-Out-Attack without the feat.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby digitalangel » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:52 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
TheSander wrote:
digitalangel wrote:Array:
<main power> 19 PPS + 1 PP because I want it to be dynamic = 20PP
AE1: not dynamic, so up to 20PPs to spend on the AE and still be legal since <main power> cost 20PP
AE2: dynamic power = 1PP, so 19 PPs left to spend on AE2 to stay within the PP limits based on <Main power>
AE3: same as AE2 <=19 PP power + 1 PP for dynamic <= 20PP

Total array cost = 23 (20 for <main power> + 3 AEs)

So the character could have AE1 active, but none of the others since AE1 is not dynamic.


I'm not sure I understand the pricing. So the final price for an array is (main power cost)+AE? And the alternate effects themselves are not counted in it?

Mainly correct. Digital Angel is wrong that the non-dynamic power would have 20 PP to play with, though. So the cost is the base power (here 19) plus the points spent on making alternate powers or making powers dynamic. It costs 1 PP to create an Alternate Effect. It costs 1 PP to make an Alternate Effect or the base effect Dynamic. So this one would be 19 + 3 (3 Alternate Effects) + 3 (base effect and 2 AEs are Dynamic). Once per turn, you can either choose to allocate all points to your non-Dynamic AE or choose to split the points among your Dynamic AEs. Note that Extras, Flaws, and Quirks always apply to any Dynamic power which has any ranks active, so a flat Extra on the power will impose a minimum number of PP spent.

While it dates back to 2E, and includes a few concepts that were not ported to 3E, I still recommend Delemental's summary of how Arrays and Alternate Powers work.



Hmm that actually makes sense. Help someone out and I learned something as well..win/win.

As it was explained to me, and as the group I learned M&M with originally read the rules, Dynamic was treated as a flat +1 extra on each power in the array, still counting towards the cost of that slot. While our GM didn't let anyone abuse that too bad, it makes sense. Basically a 1PP extra to make an entire array dynamic always seemed cheap, but an extra 1PP can make an entire array innate, so why not?

Rereading pages 60-61 in the 2E mastermind's manual it is pretty vague about if my example should have come out to the 24 or 27 PPs. Rereading pages 108-110 of the 2E UP does suggest that it would be the 1PP per dynamic power added to the total array cost, but is still vague enough that I can see why I originally learned it wrong(especially since that was the interpretation of the GM that taught the system to me).

The link gave much better example of each type of array than the books did, says pretty clearly that the array I described would have been 27 PP total.
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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby TheSander » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:25 am

So finally done and read the book cover to cover, and MAN, I really want to play right now, even more than I want to GM.

I was wondering, do advantages acquired through enhanced trait stop working if the power is nullified? Like for example super speed, does the improved initiave disappear if the power is canceled?

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby Monolith » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:02 am

TheSander wrote:I was wondering, do advantages acquired through enhanced trait stop working if the power is nullified? Like for example super speed, does the improved initiave disappear if the power is canceled?

Yeah. If you buy it as a power then it functions like a power, with all the positive and negatives that might include. Positives, it can be power stunted. Negatives, it can be nullified/drained, and so on.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:11 am

Monolith wrote:
TheSander wrote:I was wondering, do advantages acquired through enhanced trait stop working if the power is nullified? Like for example super speed, does the improved initiave disappear if the power is canceled?

Yeah. If you buy it as a power then it functions like a power, with all the positive and negatives that might include. Positives, it can be power stunted. Negatives, it can be nullified/drained, and so on.

Although, whether Initiative changes if your initiative bonus does is a contentious subject. Steve Kenson weighed in in 2E as that your position in initiative does not change if your bonus does. So having your Super-Speed nullified in-battle really doesn't do much about your place in Initiative (on a side note, I've seen the occasional player put their powers with Improved Initiative in an array slot and then switch away from them once the fight starts for this reason).

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby Monolith » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:15 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Monolith wrote:
TheSander wrote:I was wondering, do advantages acquired through enhanced trait stop working if the power is nullified? Like for example super speed, does the improved initiave disappear if the power is canceled?

Yeah. If you buy it as a power then it functions like a power, with all the positive and negatives that might include. Positives, it can be power stunted. Negatives, it can be nullified/drained, and so on.

Although, whether Initiative changes if your initiative bonus does is a contentious subject. Steve Kenson weighed in in 2E as that your position in initiative does not change if your bonus does. So having your Super-Speed nullified in-battle really doesn't do much about your place in Initiative (on a side note, I've seen the occasional player put their powers with Improved Initiative in an array slot and then switch away from them once the fight starts for this reason).

I can understand improved initiative, because changing it multiple times can cause issues during play, but that is not the only advantage you can buy enhanced. For example, if someone took enhanced defensive roll as part of super-speed you would not expect the toughness bonus to stick around if nullified.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:28 am

Monolith wrote:I can understand improved initiative, because changing it multiple times can cause issues during play, but that is not the only advantage you can buy enhanced. For example, if someone took enhanced defensive roll as part of super-speed you would not expect the toughness bonus to stick around if nullified.

Agreed. :-P Sorry, saw a corner case which seems to come up fairly often on the boards in peoples' builds and reacted with a post.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby TheSander » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:14 pm

Sorry if I'm being a bother, but I'd like to be sure about this:
So if I have something like Energy Controller 20pt and then two Dynamic Alternate Effects tied to this power, do I have 20pp to divide between them, or does each power get 20pp?

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby Arthur Eld » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:35 pm

You divide the power points up. So if you have Flight 10 and Reaction Damage as DAEs off of Blast 10, you could have Flight 2, Reaction Damage 4, or Flight 4, Reaction Damage 3, or any other combination that added up to 20.

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Re: New GM, asking for advice

Postby TheSander » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:25 pm

But non of those examples actually add up to twenty at all.


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