Powerhouse

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Doleth
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Powerhouse

Postby Doleth » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:59 pm

I'm starting a new game soon, and one of my player created his character based on the powerhouse archetype in the core book. The problem here is that the archetype has immunity 12(heat&cold damage, fatigue and pressure) When I copied said character in Hero Lab, I discovered that this would be immunity 16, since heat and cold are both common descriptor(so worth 5pp each) and fatigue effect is also worth 5pp. What's going on with Powerhouse guy?
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Re: Powerhouse

Postby Foreshadow » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:17 pm

The other big issue with him is he is out of step with the general pattern you see in powerhouse types. Go look at many Freedom City/Emerald City and DC characters and you'll see a general trend to have a lower Stamina than strength, often far less. Having a guy with 14 Stamina and 12 Strength is possible, but if the powerhouse is like a general Default and a character like Hulk or Thing are simply the archetype and then some, like it works with other archetypes, such as the Battlesuit is simply a slimmed down Iron Man. It makes more sense to have a 14 Strength and 12 Stamina powerhouse, and simply buy up some Protection. Perhaps to make the whole points work out to 150, a 10 Stamina might be needed.

If you look at Princess she is a better Powerhouse build than the Powerhouse archetype, though she has 12 strength and 12 stamina, again not normal since many have more strength than stamina.

But that is water under the bridge since it won't be changed, and if its slightly off in cost, it could be tweaked, but does it really matter. I think if your going to recost it, that simply tweaking it all is in order. If you find your 4 points over due to the immunity, lower the Stamina and increasing the Protection might be how to make it all even out, if if that means a Stamina of 8 or 9. In the end it would not really matter since the character has the same Toughness. Plus the Impervious is largely an afterthought and makes little difference so if you have to shave points, that is another area. It doesn't make thematic sense, but as far as mechanics go it is not essential to the powerhouse archetype.

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Re: Powerhouse

Postby Shock » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:26 pm

Doleth wrote:I'm starting a new game soon, and one of my player created his character based on the powerhouse archetype in the core book. The problem here is that the archetype has immunity 12(heat&cold damage, fatigue and pressure) When I copied said character in Hero Lab, I discovered that this would be immunity 16, since heat and cold are both common descriptor(so worth 5pp each) and fatigue effect is also worth 5pp. What's going on with Powerhouse guy?

There's a difference between Immunity to Fatigue(getting tired) and Immunity to Fatigue Effects (powers with the Fatigue descriptor). Immunity to Fatigue is only 2 points because all it does is keep you from getting tired from running or other normal exertion. Immunity to Fatigue Effects is 5 points because it covers a lot more.

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Re: Powerhouse

Postby Fists of Dorn » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:30 am

How about replacing it with:

Immunity - 19 / 12
Flaw: Limited to half-effect -1/rank where noted
    *Cold damage (5) (half-effect)
    *Environmental cold (1)
    *Environmental heat (1)
    *Environmental pressure (1)
    *Environmental vacuum (1)
    *Fatigue effects (5) (half-effect)
    *Heat damage (5) (half-effect)

He won't be completely immune to cold and heat damage, but due to his 14 toughness and 12 ranks of impervious he may as well be. You could always limit his ranks of impervious to physical damage too, which would help to distinguish him from the run-of-the-mill powerhouse.



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Re: Powerhouse

Postby JDRook » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:14 am

If it's a point-total concern, you could allow for his Shockwave and Groundstrike powers to be Alternate Effects off of his Strength Damage rank. Then that 11-point array becomes two 1-point AEs and you save 9p. Use that to cover the cost discrepancy and your biggest problem is what to do with the extra points.

To be fair, some GMs don't go for Strength Stunts built like that, but there's no RAW reason you can't use it.
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Re: Powerhouse

Postby JDRook » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:24 am

Doleth wrote:The problem here is that the archetype has immunity 12(heat&cold damage, fatigue and pressure) When I copied said character in Hero Lab, I discovered that this would be immunity 16, since heat and cold are both common descriptor(so worth 5pp each) and fatigue effect is also worth 5pp. What's going on with Powerhouse guy?

I believe there's actually a folder of core archetypes that comes with your HeroLab M&M3e module. I dug mine up from C:\...\Documents\Hero Lab\Portfolios\mutants3, so yours is probably somewhere similar. The "official" Powerhouse build in there does not break down the Immunities like that. Cold & Heat are both environmental for 1p each, Fatigue is regular 5p, and apparently Pressure is a damage type (!?!) for the last 5p. So yeah, I don't think anybody really knows what's going on with that Powerhouse guy.

EDIT: This was actually posted as Errata 3 years ago and has not been fixed yet despite the new "Deluxe" reprint, so it doesn't look like it's going to be dealt with.
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Re: Powerhouse

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:57 pm

Doleth wrote:I'm starting a new game soon, and one of my player created his character based on the powerhouse archetype in the core book. The problem here is that the archetype has immunity 12(heat&cold damage, fatigue and pressure) When I copied said character in Hero Lab, I discovered that this would be immunity 16, since heat and cold are both common descriptor(so worth 5pp each) and fatigue effect is also worth 5pp.


I think the biggest problem you have is building based on the archetypes. I've said it before, I'll say it again: The Archetypes are an example of what you can do, not what you SHOULD do. In being generic archetypes, they are pretty dull, both from a stat point of view, but also a conceptual point of view.

So if I may, I'm going to give you a piece of advice. I'm going to assume this players not a roleplayer, or if he is he's more of the D&D, everyone playing a class, style gamer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, its a perfectly valid gaming style.... But if you want to get the best out of new players, with no system mastery of M&M, I've taken to instead of giving people the book & saying "what do you want to build", I instead take the book away & hand out blank A4 sheets of paper & say "design a superhero", here are the series restrictions (usually the restrictions are stated as "this game is similar to his comic & nothing like this comic").

Tell them not to worry about the rules & instead design a comic book superhero they would want to read about. You'll get much more out of your players this way, I know I have, especially with new players. Once you've figured out what he wants to really do, then you can figure out how to effect that using the effect engine of M&M.

I hope that helps to indirectly answer your question. :D
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Doleth
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Re: Powerhouse

Postby Doleth » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:39 pm

Hey everyone, thank you for your time and answer! It wasn't a point saving concern, the character in question had a few free point left at the time, I was just pretty confused by the immunity. I checked where JDRook said and found the same thing they did, so I'll pass it along to my player with Fists of Dorn alternate immunity in case he prefers it. I think pressure damage would mostly mean damage from grappling along with the occasional weird power.

Foreshadow, the character in question is a big rock-like alien, so him being tougher than stronger makes senses. Shock, that's what I thought too, but this still wouldn't be a rank 12 immunity.

saint_matthew, thanks for the concern, but I don't think that's an issue here. All of my player had character concept before they had stats, this player probably just figured the powerhouse archetype fitted with the concept with some modification. I like your method of character creation, that's pretty close to how I build my own character and I think that's how my players made theirs.
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Re: Powerhouse

Postby JDRook » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:48 am

Doleth wrote:I think pressure damage would mostly mean damage from grappling along with the occasional weird power.

That's a . . . creative interpretation. I'm going to stick "editorial blind spot" on that one myself, although if I did allow a Pressure Damage Immunity that prevented damage from crushing Grabs, I'd probably make it 2-5p points. That seems in keeping with other specialized maneuver damage like Slams.
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Re: Powerhouse

Postby Arkrite » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:57 am

I believe that the Immunity to Pressure was an environmental immunity.
It wouldn't work against a super power or attack, but you'd be perfectly fine at the very bottom of the deepest ocean. At least for a one point immunity.
If you wanted to be immune to damage or effects you'd have to pay more.

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Re: Powerhouse

Postby Monolith » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:58 am

Arkrite wrote:I believe that the Immunity to Pressure was an environmental immunity.
It wouldn't work against a super power or attack, but you'd be perfectly fine at the very bottom of the deepest ocean. At least for a one point immunity.
If you wanted to be immune to damage or effects you'd have to pay more.

Yeah. The immunity is to an environmental effect attack, in this case pressure. It is not an immunity to pressure damage.


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