Move objects, round by round and options

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spikevampire
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Move objects, round by round and options

Postby spikevampire » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:15 pm

Hello guys I have been looking at move objects and I am really struggling with it, even after the literature review :shock:

I've never had clear in mind how the power works and I feel in need of this to finally get the hang of it.

Ex.

Mr M&O (short for Mr Move and Objects):
Move Objects 10 (Extra: Damaging +1; 30pp)

vs

Random Mr X Guy
No powers

- Scenario 1
1 Round: As standard action M&O uses Move Objects and hit Random's dodge defense. Random stays put because he really wants to see where this is going and he intentionally lose his grab check.
2 Round: M&O use his standard action to damage his enemy
Q: Is this correct or he could inflict the same damage in the same round soon after Random got the grab check wrong?

- Scenario 2
1 Round: As standard action M&O uses Move Objects and hit Random's dodge defense. He inflict damage straightaway because of his extra, but he does not grab the enemy
Q: Is this correct or he could have also grabbed him in the same round?

- Scenario 3
1 Round: As standard action M&O uses Move Objects and hit Random's dodge defense. Random stays put because he really wants to see how the power works and he intentionally lose his grab check.
2 Round: M&O decide to throw away his opponent. No check needed.
Q: Is this correct or he could have also thrown him in the same round?

- Scenario 4
1 Round: M&O grabs an object with a routine check to fling to the enemy... He himself is confused on how many rounds it will get him to do this... Random Man just cries in despair for the same reasons M&O is baffled from...

I am assuming the right answers are :
1 - NO
2 - NO
3 - NO
4 - FTW???

But at that point, how could I simulate a cannon fling?
Power Profiles suggests this (Flinging Gust: Move Object, Limited Direction • 1 point per
rank) but at this point, does it follow the mechanics of regular Move Objects?

Also, will a power like this (Move Objects 10 (Flaw: Instant, Limited Direction)) ever work?
Because you can only grab someone and throw him the following round and it will be impossible because the power should terminate.

I apologise for this post... but seriously I can't figure it out by myself...

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Re: Move objects, round by round and options

Postby FuzzyBoots » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:21 pm

Scenario 1 and 2 are correct. Damage and the grab are two separate things. The damaging extra lets you punch someone or lets you squeeze them while in the grapple.

As regards Scenario 3, honestly, the game doesn't really handle this as best I can tell. I don't have my handbook on me (and the PDF link isn't working right now), but the entry at d20herosrd.com mentions nothing about throwing being part of a Grab action in 3E, so we're in uncharted territory. They cover moving someone as you move, but not throwing them. I would probably require a grapple check or a strength resistance check just because it seems like the target would try to struggle, but would allow it as a Standard if you'd already succeeded in getting them into a first-degree immobile situation.

Scenario 4, I'm not certain what the correct answer is, but I see it as a Move action to pick up the object and a Standard to throw the item on the attack.

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Re: Move objects, round by round and options

Postby JDRook » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:06 am

Scenario 1 - That's basically right. The kicker is that all PCs get only one Standard Action per round, and both Attack and Grab require a Standard Action each. The PC could use Extra Effort to get another Standard Action, taking Fatigue or buying it off with a Hero Point.

Scenario 2 - Exactly the same unless your PC also has Fast Grab, which allows you to add a Grab as a Free Action to a successful unarmed attack. It could be argued that using Move Object is not necessarily an unarmed attack and therefore not eligible for this; GM call.

Scenario 3 - Throwing opponents is woefully lacking in the core books, but they do have a sidebar on it in the Strength Power Profile. There are 3 possibilities (for simplicity, I'll refer to the Thrower as Sling and the "Throwee" as Shot):
- Fastball Special: Sling and Shot are allies. Shot Delays action and Sling uses Standard Action to pick up and throw Shot. Attack check is Sling's Ranged Attack, Shot uses Charge or Slam Attack using the throwing distance rank (Sling's STR - Shot's mass) as the Speed of the Charge/Slam. Initiative-wise, Shot now acts immediately after Sling.
- Fling Away: Sling and Shot are not friends. Sling Grabs as a Standard Action and can fling Shot in an indiscriminate direction as a Free Action.
- Fling at Target: Same as above, but once Grab is successful, Sling can choose to maintain the Grab until he gets another Standard Action (next round or Extra Effort; maintaining Grab is a Free Action) at which point Sling can throw Shot at a third subject. Distance is -2 for the unwilling, unbalanced, non-aerodynamic shot, but attack check is the same as any thrown object. Damage is equal to Sling's STR and is applied to both Shot and the target. (Note action economy is maintained; two Standard Actions, two opponents damaged.)

Scenario 4 - It's not easy to find, but in the Action Rounds section under Action Types, Move Action allows you to pick up, draw or stow objects. So M&O can pick up an object as a Move Action and then throw it at Random Man as an Attack for a Standard Action; easy peasy. Some GMs may houserule, handwave or just plain ignore this, but IMHO, this is how default Move Object can cost the same as Ranged Damage and still be balanced. MO requires that you pick up stuff as a Move Action and then attack, while RD doesn't need a Move Action, allowing the PC to "run and gun," but of course MO has a lot of other utility to compensate.

Of course, you built M&O with Damaging MO, meaning it damages even without picking stuff up. I think it would be reasonable to allow an essentially "instant pickup'n'throw" (effectively Free Action plus Standard for the targeted throw) for your attacks with inanimate objects, so that effectively you also have the option to run and gun with the available Move Action. On the other hand, you could also go the Green Lantern design route and just have an Alternate Effect of Ranged Damage on you Move Object, with the descriptor "picks up and throws stuff" or even "instantly crushes people at range", which is cheaper and will be functionally the same 99% of the time.

As for the "stuff" you throw, as long as it's not too heavy to lift or tethered to the ground (or is actually part of the ground), you should be fine throwing it. Mass will limit range, though, although the tradeoff is that big thing could be Area Attacks. If it is tethered somehow, my rule of thumb is that as long as your MO rank is at least 1 rank higher* than the Toughness of the tether or the object, you can break it away as a routine Move Action. If not, you'll need to give it your full attention, taking a Standard Action to attack the object. Remember, rolling as a Finishing Move on a Defenseless object gives you an automatic critical, so unless you're really out of your league or roll atrociously you'll break that thing off in one shot.

Now to really blow your mind, I have an issue with MO, specifically when it is used with Disarm or Grab or Trip, that most people seem to ignore. If you read up on each of those Actions, they have various consequences of use: Disarm has a penalty that increases when Ranged and a reversal effect if you fail; Grab imposes conditions on you even when successful (no mention of Ranged); and Trip also has a penalty and reversal on failure (no Ranged mentioned). MO says you can use all of these, presumably at range, but makes no mention that those consequences would go away, so one would assume they would all be in force even though they may not make logical sense. (How does Grabbing someone at range leave you Hindered and Vulnerable? More importantly, does that fit your concept of the power?) My suggestion is that all D/G/T actions done at range impose no conditions or reversal for failure, but have a -5 penalty to hit to compensate (matching the Ranged Disarm rule). This penalty can be bought off with the respective Improved [Action] Advantage.

I mention this every chance I get, but I think most GMs just handwave/ignore it and assume that MO gets rid of some or all of those consequences at range. Check with your GM.


*this relates to 2nd degree breaking of defenseless inanimate objects using routine Toughness checks. You can look it up, but trust me, this is how the numbers eventually shake out.
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Re: Move objects, round by round and options

Postby FuzzyBoots » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:12 am

Brings back memories of the discussions back in 2E as to whether there was a meaningful way for most people to actually break a telekinetic grab, especially if they were suspended in the air with no leverage. Regular grapple, you can attack the limbs holding you, distract your opponent by jabbing a thumb in their eyes, throw your weight around to knock them off balance... Move Object technically doesn't really have any of the above. I'm sure you could probably make an argument for distracting the person using telekinesis by projectile spitting in his eye or something, but then why are you using your Strength to oppose it?

On a side note, based on the text stating that there is no action/reaction, I don't think the "forcibly move the person with you" option is valid.

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Re: Move objects, round by round and options

Postby JDRook » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:46 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:Brings back memories of the discussions back in 2E as to whether there was a meaningful way for most people to actually break a telekinetic grab . . . Move Object technically doesn't really have any of the above.

I think you're assuming a particular descriptor for MO where there's nothing there to fight against, whereas by default there should be some perceptible aspect of the power. A standard Green Lantern MO is going to have a big green glowy hand (or something similar) that wraps around the target, and I don't think there's any problem imagining someone breaking out of that using Strength or similar effects. If you look at it from a pure Effects point of view, there would need to be a Modifier added to MO to give that "can't resist" functionality, and I've never seen that mentioned. There's also the genre convention of great strength solving "impossible" problems, and I think a lot of the time you see a target "irresistibly" Grabbed in the genre, it's because the MO is so much stronger than the target as opposed to having no leverage or similar concerns.
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Re: Move objects, round by round and options

Postby spikevampire » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:54 am

I really like JD's resolution of scenario 3! It kinds of give an explanation to the air fling power I described in my previous post.

A question related to the section "Fling away": how do you handle damage?

You are basically flinging someone away, and there are few power options which do this (air fling, knockback strength power). Are you inflicting the damage based on the distance?
I think it will still be within the boundaries of fairness as you get a defense check, a str check and after that you also reduce the damage with your mass...

Also, do you need to immobilize someone or just grab? I guess than for the powers you only have to win the check, for grab or move objects you should immobilize as it is similar to move whilst dragging someone.

I'm loving this post, such an epiphany!!!

PS: concerning fuzzy's second answer, I guess it's pretty much the same as struggling out of a physical grapple but instead of physically tire out someone and slip out of their grasp, you mentally tire one's mind with your struggle. The problem is that most people think about move obj as the definite answer in terms of restriction, immobilization (like darth vader against a troup soldier) but let's think about it, a full powered juggernaut will blow a weak telekinesist just by moving his arm!

About JD's idea of penalties on ranged disarm ecc I don't think they should apply as this power is specifically designed to do that and nothing else (unless you buy extras) and so it would be so much weaker of a simple blast power if incurred in the same limitation.

Of course this is my personal opinion guys and your ideas are very much appreciated. I'm actually writing a post about snare and I will love to hear your thoughts about it...

Thank you very much indeed,
Spikey

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Re: Move objects, round by round and options

Postby JDRook » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:22 pm

spikevampire wrote:About JD's idea of penalties on ranged disarm ecc I don't think they should apply as this power is specifically designed to do that and nothing else (unless you buy extras) and so it would be so much weaker of a simple blast power if incurred in the same limitation.

I might agree with you if the Ranged Disarm penalty wasn't RAW; if Disarm has a Close penalty and a greater Ranged penalty, why don't the others? I was just using Disarm's penalties as a simple template on the other actions to make a comparable consequence.

Also, MO even without extras is easily comparable to vanilla Blast. The difference between Blast and MO in terms of only dealing damage at range is essentially one point; an Activation - Move Action Flaw with the descriptor "Pick up something to throw". So you could have an object flinging power as:

Blast X, Activation: Move -1p (which is mechanically identical to Kinetic Bullet in the Kinetic PP)
or
Move Object X (which also has the ability to lift and move around rank mass objects, which is easily worth 1p of value)

I think requiring a few extra points to allow an MO PC to use D/G/T completely unpenalized (ie even less penalized than standard Close usage) is not unreasonable, it's just not intuitive so no one ever does it. Then again, it's also just a few points, so it's NBD. I'm just caught up with my particular attention to detail and effects-based balance issues apparently hit all my buttons. :) We can agree to disagree because I could argue this for hours but not using it will not impact your ability to play the game, which is presumably your ultimate goal.
Sorry, I can't hear your argument for realism over the sound of my eye beams. :P

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Re: Move objects, round by round and options

Postby spikevampire » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:13 pm

Definitely I rather not stay here discussing hours about this which has you say it's a few points difference and the ultimate aim is to play the game!

In the end, if all the characters who use MO in my setting will have those few feats extra (which it will be the case) I could also just say those feats come inclusive with the power bundle.

I see your point and I can see that since's not clearly stated anywhere... we should move on being aware of the two views :)

Thank you very much, for your suggestions, they're very much appreciated!


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