Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:37 pm

And here, I thought M&M3 handled different power levels beautifully. Maybe it's because I came over from Champions/Hero, but in the 2.5 years I've been playing DCA I've been impressed by how well it handles multiple levels of ability. The campaign I run, characters are anywhere from PL 10 to PL 15 (a la the Justice League from the book). I even have a PL 12 Batman knock-off I play sometimes when someone guest runs my campaign (http://www.rcuhero.net/dc_h/guardian2_dca.htm).

And I was just a player in another campaign the day my buddy Neil, playing Black Lotus (http://www.rcuhero.net/dc_gh/blklotus_dca.htm), beat a severely defense shifted villainess named Statuesque (http://www.rcuhero.net/dc_v/statuesque_dca.htm). He didn't think it was possible.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby saint_matthew » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:58 pm

Monolith wrote:I've played a lot of MSH, myself, and I've yet to see a scenario where Daredevil can defeat the Hulk. You can spend every point of karma DD has and he's not going to defeat the Hulk; and that's generally what you're talking about with Batman versus Darkseid types of encounters.

And I'll say again, if you don't think a 8-10 damage Bats can cut the mustard, and you're unwilling to regularly give the players mixed pl villain groups to fight so everyone has an equal chance, then simply increase the pl of Batman. The pls given are arbitrary. You don't need to throw in a pl 12 Bats with a pl 15 Supers and WW. Simply increase Batman's pl by 2: give him +4 to damage with some electro-knuckles and +2 in all other stats: attack, dodge, and defenses. Then he's a pl 14 and can hold his own against +/-1 foes.


Or drop some of his superflous attributes (i mean, damn guys, those be some superflous attributes) & replace his equipment based utility built array & build a power based utility built array... On with some effects coming close to the level cap.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Narsil » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:36 am

I think one thing Batman really, well and truly suffers from in Mutants & Masterminds 3e is the removal of sneak attack. Going from a +16 attack/+8 damage to a +20 attack/+4 damage has to kill someone's effectiveness pretty damn fast.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:54 am

Narsil wrote:I think one thing Batman really, well and truly suffers from in Mutants & Masterminds 3e is the removal of sneak attack. Going from a +16 attack/+8 damage to a +20 attack/+4 damage has to kill someone's effectiveness pretty damn fast.


You can always build sneak attack yourself. All the parts are there if you want to use them.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Narsil » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:18 am

I'll admit that I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Though as I was thinking about it, I suppose an alternative way of looking at it is as such... when it comes to most Justice League fights, Batman is actually a huge-sized flying blaster. His stat-block does after all come with a built-in fighter jet. A homing Ranged Damage 11 attack is not too horrible to have to rely on in an occasional fight.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:21 am

Narsil wrote:I'll admit that I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Though as I was thinking about it, I suppose an alternative way of looking at it is as such... when it comes to most Justice League fights, Batman is actually a huge-sized flying blaster. His stat-block does after all come with a built-in fighter jet. A homing Ranged Damage 11 attack is not too horrible to have to rely on in an occasional fight.


At this point the OP would be better off playing Batwing... Not the first Batwing, but the second Batiwng.... That first Batwing was a complete Mary Sue.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Narsil » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:19 am

I will refrain from going on a very long and protracted rant about my hatred for that term and every single one of its connotations. I am of the very strong opinion that the whole 'Mary Sue' thing is an overblown and ridiculous overreaction to something that is not nearly as much of an issue as people think it is.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:29 am

Narsil wrote:I will refrain from going on a very long and protracted rant about my hatred for that term and every single one of its connotations. I am of the very strong opinion that the whole 'Mary Sue' thing is an overblown and ridiculous overreaction to something that is not nearly as much of an issue as people think it is.


If you like i can change the terminology to "Exceptionally shallow character, with no personality or defining qualities, layered over a suite of ill defined abilities, set in a narrative absent of depth or interesting supporting cast, played to a very old stereotypical version of another country that isn't America empty of any kind of interest due to being played to that stereotype." :lol:
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Kyle » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:30 am

Captain Liberty wrote:Coming up very soon I am going to be playing online in a Justice League campaign and we plan on using the character writeups in the DCA books, even with the differing power levels of the characters from JL. I will be playing as Batman.

However, I am concerned about being able to be effective in combat situations alongside Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. based on Batman's writeup in the books. When we are playing against some heavy hitting bad guys Batman will likely not even be able to damage a lot of them it seems.

How can I play Batman to be as effective as possible given this? I understand playing him very smartly, as portrayed in the literature but are there any builds out there where Batman carries particular gadgets and things to make him be more effective against the heavy hitters of the DCU?

Do you know what other characters people are planning on playing? Is your Batman likely going to be the lowest PL in the group, or is there a really big Vibe fan getting in on the action?

My advice would be to talk with you GM and ask them how they intend to handle the PL variance. Running a campaign with characters at vastly different Power Levels makes it tricky to make sure everyone's having fun, but I think it can be done.

Also, think about what it is that you want out of the campaign. Would you be content, as a player, being in a situation where your character was excluded from combat but was able to contribute in some other way? If Superman and Wonder Woman are punching the hell out of giant robots, would you be happy if your Batman was disarming a bomb that was about to go off?

If you're going to be happy playing a Batman who's role in a lot of combat encounters is fighting goons, or staying out of the fight to deal with some other [just as important but perhaps not quite so viscerally satisfying] situation then I see no reason why a GM couldn't make that work for all parties involved. If your expectation is that you're going into this campaign and you're going to be a significant factor in combat situations, that might be a problem, especially if you're using one of the official DCA Batman builds.

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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Narsil » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:32 am

saint_matthew wrote:
Narsil wrote:I will refrain from going on a very long and protracted rant about my hatred for that term and every single one of its connotations. I am of the very strong opinion that the whole 'Mary Sue' thing is an overblown and ridiculous overreaction to something that is not nearly as much of an issue as people think it is.


If you like i can change the terminology to "Exceptionally shallow character, with no personality or defining qualities, layered over a suite of ill defined abilities, set in a narrative absent of depth or interesting supporting cast, played to a very old stereotypical version of another country that isn't America empty of any kind of interest due to being played to that stereotype." :lol:


I haven't read the Batwing series beyond the first issue or so, but my issue with 'Mary Sue' as a label is mostly that it has been misused and abused and twisted and conceptually screwed up to the point that it basically lacks any meaning and is usually used to mean 'female character I do not like'. Or if the person using the term is a bit more progressive 'main character in a story I do not like or which is of poor quality'.

I'm not going to judge the Batwing series either way, though; I've heard negative statements like yours, and I've heard positive statements from a few other people, so I'm not exactly qualified to judge.

That being said, if they wanted to give a member of Batman Inc. his or her own series, they should have gone with Black Bat, Nightrunner and Knight. Not even 'or', by the way; those characters all need their own ongoing and permanent series.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby saint_matthew » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:06 pm

Narsil wrote:I'm not going to judge the Batwing series either way, though; I've heard negative statements like yours, and I've heard positive statements from a few other people, so I'm not exactly qualified to judge.


Well i have & unfortunately it is not good. Honestly i should have been the easiest drop for that book, as i love murder mysteries, foriegn super heroes & self contained story telling... Unfortunately it was not good at any of those things, to the point that DC decided to recast the entire book at roughly issue 19. Its a completely different book now & is much better, if far from perfect.
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Elana » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:55 am

If the game in question uses a campaign PL and does not enforce the PLs written in the book, increasing Batmans PL is as easy as picking up some equipment.
The comics do say that his costumed is armored, often times even to be bulletproof.
So enough justification to add something like 6 points of protection.
As it isn't Batmans schtick to beat Supermans villains into a pulp go for something more his style,
Get yourself some gadgets that can impose some afflictions to help the heavy hitters.

And as the campaign level is obviously 15 if Superman is allowed to play, you should be able to get something a lot more effective than what the Batman writeup carries around (which realistically is what he uses on an average night in Gotham..not what he would wear if he knows that he goes against tougher opponents)
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Captain Liberty » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:19 pm

Any peeps want to help me take the baseline PL 12 Batman from the game book and bump him to PL 15 with some nice extra gadgets to help him in a JL campaign?
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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Foreshadow » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:48 pm

I would start by giving Batman what the build in the book should have had: +2 protection from his Suit, which also had gliding, slow fall, and you get small adjustments like +10 toughness/+14 defense. Start from there and adjust other elements.

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Re: Justice League campaign - How can I have Batman compete?

Postby Narsil » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:56 pm

Add the following effect as a power;
Batman: Variable 10 (skills, feats and equipment of a 'Prepared' descriptor) • 70 points
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