Illusionary Character Interactions

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Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby ican » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:13 pm

I have a few scenarios regarding Interacting with Illusions that I'd greatly appreciate some help with.
For all sakes and purposes lets say the Illusionary power in the situations below affects all senses, and the "character" is a NPC or player.

1. Attacking: If an illusion of a monster is created and is attacked by a character, what would the defense (dodge/parry) be to hit the illusion monster to potentially dispel the illusion.

2. Illusion Attack Limits: Again using the illusion monster, lets say the monster tries to grab the character. Normally the grabbing characters strength/grab power would be the DC, but this is an illusion and has no strength. Also lets say the character has a very low insight so he still can't tell its not real. What would the illusion monsters strength be to determine the degrees of failure for the grab, is it whatever the the person controlling it wishes? (And since this is an illusion of coarse no damage is actually done).

3.Interacting Limits: What are some examples that qualify as an interaction. If it's a phantom smell, would it be as soon as you smell it. If a sound, would it be as soon as you hear it. If so for both situations then would you get the chance for a visual one as soon as you see it, and then maybe again if you touch it?

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby Monolith » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:19 pm

1: It has no fixed value. The dodge/parry would be appropriate to the thing being attacked. The gm would just assign appropriate values.

2: An illusion can't really grab someone. The moment it tried to attack and pass through the target the illusion would effectively be dispelled. That's why the rules suggest buying a perception ranged attack to use with the illusion; and perception ranged always hit.

3: I think most of these are situational. If you're in the middle of a park you probably wouldn't get a check to notice the smell from a patch of flowers because you'd expect them to be there. It's when you tried to pick up the flower and smell it closely that you'd get the check. But if you were in the middle of an intersection you probably should get an insight check to think something is odd about a patch of flowers being there.

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby ican » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:49 am

Thanks Monolith, what you say make sense (especially for #2) but I have a few followups.

Regarding 1 (Attacking) I'm still a little uncertain how to handle those situations. My concern (though not stated earlier) is that the Illusion power I'm thinking about has the Feedback flaw, so not knowing or allowing any defense to an illusionary being could be used to circumvent the flaw.

Regarding 3 (Interacting Limits) Getting the chance to notice things when they seem out of place is a good rule of thumb, but in a super powered world much more can be justified. Something may be out of place but what created it could be real (some other create or transform power for example) which you wouldn't get or need a check. Of coarse maybe I'm just over thinking it ;)

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby Monolith » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:00 pm

1: What I mean here is that there is no fixed value. You have to give the item it's own value. If you make an illusionary horse then it should have the dodge/parry values of a horse. If you make an illusionary car then it should have the dodge/parry values of a car. If you have an illusionary building then it has no value, as it's too big to have a dodge/parry. There is no fixed value for illusions. The value is whatever is reasonable for what the illusion is. It's just something that needs to be decided every time an illusion comes into play.

2: As a gm you can make secret insight rolls for the player in those times when something might be off and they're not noticing it from your description of the scene. I wouldn't get too much more involved then that.

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby Greyman » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:27 pm

ican wrote:1. Attacking: If an illusion of a monster is created and is attacked by a character, what would the defense (dodge/parry) be to hit the illusion monster to potentially dispel the illusion.
No actual roll is needed; the illusionist decides on the outcome of an attack. The first attack allows the offender to make an Insight resistance check; if it fails the offender must continue treating the illusion as real. However, if it succeeds illusion is not dispelled, but it stops being convincing.

A tricky game master might still require attack rolls and set an imaginary DC and use the die roll of the first attack to make the insight check on behalf of a player in secret.

Deliberately attempting to dispel a known illusion with an attack effect uses the Countering Ongoing Effects rule; it is just an opposed power check.

ican wrote:2. Illusion Attack Limits: Again using the illusion monster, lets say the monster tries to grab the character. Normally the grabbing characters strength/grab power would be the DC, but this is an illusion and has no strength. Also lets say the character has a very low insight so he still can't tell its not real. What would the illusion monsters strength be to determine the degrees of failure for the grab, is it whatever the the person controlling it wishes? (And since this is an illusion of coarse no damage is actually done).
Since you've specified the illusion to cover all senses, which thus includes tactile, the defender will be convinced by the feel of the illusion that the grab is just as successful as the illusionist desires, even though it isn't really effective as a grab.

That is to say, the illusory grab will make the character believe they are immobile and expect to be vulnerable or defenseless, even though they really are not.
ican wrote:3.Interacting Limits: What are some examples that qualify as an interaction. If it's a phantom smell, would it be as soon as you smell it. If a sound, would it be as soon as you hear it. If so for both situations then would you get the chance for a visual one as soon as you see it, and then maybe again if you touch it?
Merely perceiving an illusion is not an interaction. It requires some action taken whose result would depend on the illusion being real, or that requires the illusion to react back.

Walking by an illusory wall is not an interaction. Searching for a secret opening would be.

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby ican » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:23 am

I may be over-thinking this but I'm trying to grasp this before the situations come up. (Oh and sorry about using "dispell", I was trying to simplify seeing through illusions but that wasn't a good choice or words)

Both of you have pretty much cleared up #1 for me, but I'm still concerned about the feedback flaw, if the illusionist determines the outcome of an attack why would they every allow their illusions to get hit, either from the illusions being too fast or making them intangible.

Greyman wrote:Merely perceiving an illusion is not an interaction. It requires some action taken whose result would depend on the illusion being real, or that requires the illusion to react back.


So what would be an action that considers a sound, smell or touch as real, other than the first interaction?

I guess looking at this another way is that since these additional senses enhance the realism of the object, maybe the purpose of combining the senses is to make it so real you almost shouldn't get a check without an outside influence (like gravity pulling you through a bridge, or wind blowing through a wall, or watching something go through the object)?

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby Greyman » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:15 am

ican wrote:Both of you have pretty much cleared up #1 for me, but I'm still concerned about the feedback flaw, if the illusionist determines the outcome of an attack why would they every allow their illusions to get hit, either from the illusions being too fast or making them intangible.
Ah. Whether or not the illusion is actually hit, the illusionist still chooses how successful the attack appears to be.

The Feedback Flaw doesn't mention what defense you should use for manifestations of Create or Illusion. I'd go with treating them both as inanimate objects. (The illusion's manifestation being the volume of altered appearance, not the apparition. It's the 'screen' not the 'picture'.)

ican wrote:
Greyman wrote:Merely perceiving an illusion is not an interaction. It requires some action taken whose result would depend on the illusion being real, or that requires the illusion to react back.


So what would be an action that considers a sound, smell or touch as real, other than the first interaction?
You gain the Insight Resistance when the Illusion tries to dissuade an action you're prepared to attempt; or entice a reaction you'd really prefer not to try.

For instance, a call of "help me, help me" would entice a hero into investigation. That alone is something you'd normally do; so no resistance on perception, just react normally. However if the investigation means crossing a clear hazard that would give pause; then make an Insight Check.

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby danelsan » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:06 pm

Keep in mind that the illusionist trying to avoid the feedback flaw has to be careful not to make his illusions obvious.

If you create the illusion and make it act or react in a way that doesn't make much sense, it should probably trigger a check to perceive something is wrong. Even with a circumstantial bonus if you make your illusion inconsistent enough (Like, say, a villain in a zoo creates a illusion of a rhino escaping the cage wouldn't be easy to perceive. If the villain then makes the illusory rhino dodge Batman's blows or outrun the Flash, they should much more easily notice that it was not real).

So, sometimes you will be forced to take the hit from the feedback flaw to avoid your illusions becoming too unbelievable
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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby ican » Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:47 pm

Sorry for the delayed response, it was a busy week.

Anyways thank you Greyman and danelsan, you both have greatly clarified this power for me! I still have some grey areas but they are much smaller and manageable now!

The rule of thumb I'm taking away from this regarding "Triggers for Insight Resistance Checks" is as follows:
-Hero is being dissuaded from doing a prepared action.
-Hero is persuaded into an action he would rather not do.
-Noticing manifestations reacting oddly or beyond what is thought of their normal limits.


Also its worth reiterating that the illusionist has complete control over the defenses (dodge/parry) of the manifestations, and chooses if it should get hit to make it believable (allowing the feedback to come into play).

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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby danelsan » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:36 pm

One exception to "the illusionist determines if the illusion is hit" is if he didn't have the time to react. Most commonly due to a surprise attack against the illusion, the illusionist might not perceive the attack in time to make the illusion react appropriately or get out of the way.

In these cases, I'd threat the illusion as a defenseless target, which allows an auto-hit for normal damage triggering the Feedback flaw, or a roll against a defense of 10 (plus or minus size modifiers) to get a critical hit, also triggering the feedback flaw.

And, of course, since the illusion wouldn't be reacting at all or would have its reaction too delayed, it wold likely trigger a check to perceive the illusion, not only for the one who made the attack, but everyone who noticed the illusion not reacting/ reacting late.
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Re: Illusionary Character Interactions

Postby ican » Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:02 pm

Excellent addition danelsan! That seems like a realistic situation. A surprise attack should catch the illusionist off guard and hinder his ability to make his illusion react properly.

I can also see the result of a successful surprise attack giving the hero an opportunity to perceive the illusion because of two things, one being easily hit (which normally the illusion would've dodged) and two the illusion not reacting properly to the damage.

Though I do have one concern regarding the defenseless part of the illusion, what if the illusion wasn't just standing still, like it was non stop moving or flying. Maybe it would flip between half defenses and defenseless depending on the situation for the surprise attack.


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