Purchasing equipment as a power

Discuss Lone Wolf's Hero Lab, the official licensed Mutants & Masterminds superhero creation and advancement tool.
Gregoth
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 pm

Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Gregoth » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:48 am

I have a character that I created under the core rules and unlimited power that has a device array - basically one device that can take different configurations. One of these configurations includes a suit of armor (using the device power) and a motorcycle (using the equipment feat bought as a power to fit in the array. The only other configuration of the array is a larger suit of armor created when the motorcycle transforms into a powered exoskeleton and attaches itself to the smaller suit of armor. (Based off the Robotech Cyclone motorcycle/armor)

My problem is that I cannot figure out how to purchase equipment as a power in Hero Lab. When I try to do so, it defaults to the feat list. Enhanced Trait can included the equipment feat but even selecting this option before putting the bike together it defaults to the equipment list and messes up my pp totals.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

User avatar
Colen
Daredevil
Daredevil
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:03 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Colen » Mon Dec 21, 2009 12:54 pm

Are you sure it's even legal to buy equipment with the device power? If you have a device that can take the form of a motorcycle, that would just be an alternate power for the device that added Speed 5 (and other appropriate powers), wouldn't it?

Being able to add equipment through devices would be a huge can of worms, so I'm not even sure I could implement that if it was allowed.
Try Hero Lab for free! http://www.wolflair.com/hero_lab/

Paragon
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 17629
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:27 am

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Paragon » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:56 pm

Colen wrote:Are you sure it's even legal to buy equipment with the device power? If you have a device that can take the form of a motorcycle, that would just be an alternate power for the device that added Speed 5 (and other appropriate powers), wouldn't it?

Being able to add equipment through devices would be a huge can of worms, so I'm not even sure I could implement that if it was allowed.


Equipment is a feat, so theoretically as an Enhanced Feat you could do this. I'm extremely dubious of the balance on it, though.
And we by this sole token;
Know we once were gods;
Take shame in being broken;
No matter how great the odds.

Gregoth
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Gregoth » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:47 pm

Strangely enough, it is perfectly legal within the rules as written to purchase equipment as a power. This allows equipment to be placed in arrays, etc. As for fixing the problem in HL, if equipment worked in the same fashion as almost everything else, this would be a non-issue but as it is currently designed to work in HL, you decide what equipment you want and the program decides how many ranks of equipment you need. Everything else in the program seems to work the opposite way. You decide how many ranks of something (such as device) you want and the program tells you how many points you have to spend within that framework. Why does equipment work backwards from everything else?

And the reason I built the bike as a piece of equipment is that, if he's not on the bike, its just a very high tech bike that anyone who knows how to ride a bike can get on and ride, if they have the key or can override/hot-wire the ignition. A villain doing knockback or grabs or something to that effect can easily get him off the bike, keeping him away from his big offensive powers that he only gets when it forms the exoskeleton or when he has access to the weapons systems on the bike. The bike itself is almost as large as a car so its impossible for him to hold onto the bike to take it with him when something like that occurs. All this fits very easily into the equipment category. Especially as the rules for building vehicles seem to be exclusive to the equipment feat. If there are rules elsewhere for building vehicles as powers instead, please direct me there, but I expect them to be very inexpensive, point-wise, to account for how easy it is to knock a person off a motorcycle.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

User avatar
Arkrite
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 11094
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Arkrite » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:39 pm

Out of curiosity, would your problem be solved if you had the ability to chose how many ranks of equipment you were buying when taking it as an enhanced trait?

Like the way one would buy multiple ranks in inspire, Rage, or Takedown Attack?

Gregoth
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Gregoth » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:12 pm

Absolutely, but the program doesn't do equipment that way unless I have missed something somewhere.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

User avatar
Arkrite
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 11094
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Arkrite » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:55 pm

There isn't, as of yet, I just was curious to see if that was a solution as it seems easy to impliment. (Irony, the easy things are always the hardest)


As for vehicles as powers, usually you go for a device to start.
Then you take a movement power, usually flight or speed. Add to the power the "affects others" extra and the "requires check" flaw (Drive for speed, Pilot for flight). If you need to carry more people than you could personally the addition of a rank or two of Super Strength works wonders.
It's not exactly eligant but it works.

I'm sure if you asked in the rules section or possibly the roll call section you'd get a much better answer on how to build a vehicle using Powers. At least a far better answer than I can offer.

Gregoth
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Gregoth » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:25 pm

I actually tried building the bike as a device, and with all the wierd work-arounds, extras, flaws, etc., it was way simpler to build it as equipment and less cost prohibitive. I tossed out that clumsy and confusing piece of paper and swore to never even contemplate trying it again until a better rules system was put into place for doing so. The mecha rules might work, but I don't have the scratch to buy that book for now.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby FuzzyBoots » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:05 am

I guess my only question would be how exactly the bike works into equipment. I take it that if someone hotwires the bike and drives off, he is stuck on that array slot because he can't reintegrate the bike into his armor?

And, for what it's worth, Equipment isn't the only odd one out when it comes to alternate powers. It's also currently impossible to have different languages for different Alternate Forms (I found out because I was statting up my "merged Planeteers" build and trying to do it while avoiding Metamorph).

Gregoth
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Gregoth » Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:30 am

You are correct in that if he doesn't have direct access to the bike he cannot activate the exoskeleton. He must be riding (or at least sitting on) the bike in order to switch modes.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Gregoth
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Gregoth » Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:50 pm

Actually, looking back at the original worksheet I used to create the character and I paid for it with the device rules as an easy to lose device (3pp will buy 5pp to use) instead of the equipment rules (1pp will buy 5ep to use) but I still used the equipment building rules. So basically the motorcycle cost three times as much as it would have if i had built it using the equipment rules. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way to replicate this in HL.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

User avatar
Arkrite
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 11094
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:02 pm
Location: The Frozen North

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Arkrite » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:38 pm

You could always try making your own.

There are files on how to create powers.

C:\HeroLab\data\mutants\authoring\tutorial2.htm

Gregoth
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:06 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Gregoth » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:58 pm

While that is certainly a possibility, I do not have the time to devote to learning the programming protocols required to even begin such an undertaking as, from what I could tell from a quick look through and a couple of simple experiments, it would be a very complex undertaking as nothing currently is set up to work in quite the manner I have described. It would have to be built from the ground up and I'm not entirely sure it could be done then within the framework of the program as it currently stands. I'll have to leave that up to the people who already know the language and use of the program fully.
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day.
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

DarkMaster
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 243
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:16 pm
Contact:

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby DarkMaster » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:03 pm

Why not build the bike as a med-sized mecha?

User avatar
Colen
Daredevil
Daredevil
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:03 pm

Re: Purchasing equipment as a power

Postby Colen » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:34 pm

Gregoth wrote:You are correct in that if he doesn't have direct access to the bike he cannot activate the exoskeleton. He must be riding (or at least sitting on) the bike in order to switch modes.


If I was your GM, I would say that taking the bike as Equipment was stretching the rules too far for my taste. But I'm not, and if your GM allows it, then it's allowed. :) However, it would take a lot of hard work for the M&M files to support this, and you're the only person who's asked for it in the multiple years the M&M files have been around.

Thus, I suggest the following - in your Device, leave the appropriate number of power points free. (For example, if your bike cost 17 equipment points, you would leave 4 PP free on the device.) Then simply buy the bike with shared power points, so it has a cost of 0, and remember that you can't use it unless you're using the specified form of the device. That way all the points add up correctly, and everything is shown on the character sheet for reference.

Hope this helps!
Try Hero Lab for free! http://www.wolflair.com/hero_lab/


Return to “Hero Lab”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests