Villainous Games?

[Nineofspades]

Also, if we're masquerading as Heroes, or some of us actually are trying to truly 'be' heroes, I think in our absence, new powered criminals would have sprung up, so it's more of an 'Us' vs Old Guard Heroes for the adoration of the public, and still allow 'Us' vs Super Villains to show up the Heroes. At least in my minds eye

See now, thats a reeeeaaaaly appealing prospect. It almost has a 'Kingdom Come' feel. Except, you know, evil.

[ClassDunce]

I think it's interesting because it's something that we haven't really had on the boards before. There have been several Suicide Squad/ Thunderbolt style games here since I've been on the board. Hell I played in ome one of the longest running and most successful ones. There have even been a few Brotherhood of Evil/Acolytes games. This gives a framework for the characters to stick together and a mission to accomplish.

They would have to higher level characters than in the other games but that's not absolutely a bad thing.

[ClassDunce]

Also, if we're masquerading as Heroes, or some of us actually are trying to truly 'be' heroes, I think in our absence, new powered criminals would have sprung up, so it's more of an 'Us' vs Old Guard Heroes for the adoration of the public, and still allow 'Us' vs Super Villains to show up the Heroes. At least in my minds eye

Why would they want to Masquerade as heroes though? That doesn't make much sense to me. The heroes did this to them. They sent launched them all into space to die fighting a fight that they wouldn't fight themselves. They're returning to a planet full of heroes prepared to stop an invasion but the world doesn't necessarily know that it was coming.

They watched friends, allies, brothers, sisters, and lovers die in a fight that none of them chose. Why would they forsake those deaths by pretending to be the very things that sent them there? It's interesting because of the questions of morality that it raises. Who is truly the hero and the villain? By abandoning the moral high ground, even with the best of intentions, the heroes have given up their... What?

I think that you may be simplifying it too much.

[Nineofspades]

I'll admit that I do agree with Dunce, in that there would be little motivation from the Villains to act as hero's in light of what was done to them. But I would say that, if knowledge came forth to the public regarding why the villains were sent of, essentially to die, then some of them might very well turn against the hero's and see the villains actions against them as justified. This of course is assuming villains primarily target hero's and don't go around causing huge amounts of collateral damage.

But ultimatly yes, I do think it better if the villains are villains.

[Spectrum]

So it's the death penalty. Maybe we might get something out of the deaths that we couldn't get out of their worthless lives. Maybe, just maybe, it'll come somewhere close to balancing out the attrocities that they commited simply because they had powers.

[kenmadragon]

Also, if we're masquerading as Heroes, or some of us actually are trying to truly 'be' heroes, I think in our absence, new powered criminals would have sprung up, so it's more of an 'Us' vs Old Guard Heroes for the adoration of the public, and still allow 'Us' vs Super Villains to show up the Heroes. At least in my minds eye

Why would they want to Masquerade as heroes though? That doesn't make much sense to me. The heroes did this to them. They sent launched them all into space to die fighting a fight that they wouldn't fight themselves. They're returning to a planet full of heroes prepared to stop an invasion but the world doesn't necessarily know that it was coming.

They watched friends, allies, brothers, sisters, and lovers die in a fight that none of them chose. Why would they forsake those deaths by pretending to be the very things that sent them there? It's interesting because of the questions of morality that it raises. Who is truly the hero and the villain? By abandoning the moral high ground, even with the best of intentions, the heroes have given up their... What?

I think that you may be simplifying it too much.

I'd like to say that such moral quandaries are what make the best villains. Take Magneto. He is considered one of the greatest and most popular comic book villains out there (a least with many of my friends) because of the moral quandaries behind him. He wants to do the right thing by helping his race be free of human oppression, and in that regard, his goal is noble. But he uses terrorist tactics and brutal methods to do so, utilizing fear and intimidation as a weapon, making him the villain. His character is deep and complex, with several motivations and explanations, that one questions whether he is good or evil. Seem like to think of him as good, but I believe that Magneto himself knows that what he does is evil, but simply a necessary evil. Thus, he becomes the villain to do what is necessary for mutant kind.

Basically, we can run this as a bunch of villains returning for payback, and will try to show the world their error, even if they have to hold a ton of people hostage and kill people to get the ability to show the world it's wrongdoing in sending up criminals to fight the heros battles for them. To show the populace that the 'heroes' aren't heroic at all. Like I said, it's a bit like the manga, Ratman. Ratman, the titular character, is a villain who fits using justice and honr, just on the wrong side of the law. However, the licensed heroes like Ankaiser, wh the people adore, are actually mean SOBs who don't do their job for the right reasons. So Ratman acts the villain to do what the heroes should be doing, as well as terrifying the populace in his attempts to beat these corrupt heroes.

[Zen_Gypsy]

They watched friends, allies, brothers, sisters, and lovers die in a fight that none of them chose. Why would they forsake those deaths by pretending to be the very things that sent them there?

You are also assuming that none of the villains have *anyone* left behind on Earth that their sacrifices are saving? Given that not all Villains are in it for world domination. Sandman, Rhino, Juggernaut, alot of the 'henchmen' types, if you suddenly succeeded in this *massive* mission and saved the earth, wouldn't that be enough to rethink your motivations? Coming home to the family, and friends now cheering you, whom you haven't spoken to in years because of the moral choices, or hardships of villainy you've endured? Why wouldn't you be at least tempted to turn it in. The public loves you, now, I am sure the government would be willing to overlook your previous record in light of your accomplishments.

The heroes made the choice, not the world itself, why not use your greatest tool, this new found popularity to stick it to the old guard heroes, and remain in that feel good public eye by becoming the heroes for the people you just risked your life to save.

Am I simplifying it? As much as any campaign is simplified, because I feel it gives the characters more conflict, and more depth, and more struggle. Us vs. the World is boring, Us vs. Our Rival Heroes on the Public Stage, Us vs. Newly formed Super Criminals, and Us vs. Ourselves are all much more compelling in my minds eye.

[Mr.Sandman]

As a civilian I would be worried as well that we sent the bad guys up to stop them in such a way. We, in a moment or 50 of bitterness could just as easily have joined the evil army instaid of kicking its collective behind. Maybe they did, thinks joe somebody, maybe they are lying and are actually back so the attack is still a surprise.

[Nineofspades]

My word this is a compelling debate!

In light of Zens elaboration on the point, I think I'm rather inclined to agree that does sound rather more interesting on the whole.

[Zen_Gypsy]

As a civilian I would be worried as well that we sent the bad guys up to stop them in such a way. We, in a moment or 50 of bitterness could just as easily have joined the evil army instaid of kicking its collective behind. Maybe they did, thinks joe somebody, maybe they are lying and are actually back so the attack is still a surprise

Great point, obviously there would be detractors and such. But any world threat the heroes (and presumably) the government were tracking, could be verified as having passed, or at least no longer being a threat.

That being said, the idea of a Galactus-type threat, villains being more *ahem* pragmatic, could have just as easily said, well, there's this delicious little sector of space ruled by the Lor-Van go eat them >.> And that may come back and bite them in the ass too

[ClassDunce]

That's only possible if the public knows about your accomplishments. What I'm proposing is that the players come back to a world that was kept completely in the dark. They knew nothing of the invasion that was coming, they know nothing of the sacrifices that were made by the villains to not only save their own lives but the world. In fact with the wiping out of the worlds villains the heroes are even more worshiped and adored.

I don't know. I just find revenge and righteous indignation, and the moral questions they raise, to be far more interesting than yet another Thunderbolts game. If that's what you guys want though then *shrugs*.

[kenmadragon]

So then, what ould be holding this group together? The bonds if battle? The collective goal to beat the heroes that sent us to die? To become the beloved if the people? To be accepted? To be reformed? All of the above?

We are villains, but that doesn't mean we are monsters (but if one of us is a werewolf villain, then he would be a monster, but that's beside the point).

[ClassDunce]

So then, what ould be holding this group together? The bonds if battle? The collective goal to beat the heroes that sent us to die? To become the beloved if the people? To be accepted? To be reformed? All of the above?

Sure and I'd add one more. How about Self Preservation? You're the last of the worlds villains returned to a world where you are now grossly outnumbered by the heroes. Heroes all desperate to keep a secret a secret that if exposed would change the way the entire world looked at them. The truth is like salt. Men want to taste a little, but too much makes everyone sick. You could go you're own separate ways and be hunted down one by one or you could stay with the people who have already proven to have your back when the s&^% hits the fan.

This route could eventually lead to exposing the truth and painting the heroes in a different light to the entire world but that would be a few issues in I would think. It would certainly be more Secret Six than Thunderbolts...

[kenmadragon]

Sounds good to me. Now we have a concept, what now? Start thinking of villain ideas? Or even more difficult, a villain team name?!?

[Mr.Sandman]

Also, we have been together for so long that personal bonds have probably started cropping up. We all survived hell together, villain or not when all you have to rely on is eachother you become like family. Coming back from that someone can't just say 'ok, bye everybody' and just go back to petty theft.