D&D: On Hold

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by EPIC » Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:17 am

but at the same time his character can get there.
That needs a little clarification. Maybe he CAN'T actually get there. That's one part of my point. Like I said, "On a ridge". I don't know if this means further up the path or on a different elevation that is not easily traversed.

As for a tactical choice, I agree Evo, but breaking through the weaker wall of the ambush seems more likely. Path of least resistance and all.

But really...someone says "I'm going after that one!", and you decide to go after that one anyways when there's no real reason to? That's poor form.

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by timothy » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:14 am

The kobolds are charging over the ridge and down towards us. It is obviously not impassable terrain.

That sais, it is bad form to attack a target another has called. However, considering there are 6 of them, it is possible that he simply decided that you would need assistance - particularly as the archers, arguably, present the greatest threat to the entire party.
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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by EPIC » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:32 am

A little math:

30 kobolds, 24 attacking on the ground and 6 on the ridge.

2 attacking the archers are outnumbered 3 to 1.

4 on the ground dealing with 24 are outnumbered 6 to 1.

If one of those two attacking the archers remained on the ground, the outnumbering would be 6 to 1 on the ridge, and slightly less than 5 to 1 on the ground.

Adding to that that Squee is the weakest combatant in the party, he is the worse candidate to assume anyone else needs assistance, least of all from himself. He also doesn't seem the type to "assist" anyone unless he'd get something out of it.


Now looking at it like this, perhaps that's exactly what sweeja and thus Squee is thinking. The outnumbering odds are far less if he and Silver are both going up there, and with SIlver being the far greater combative threat, he'll be much safer.

But then this goes back to doing things that will upset another player "because it's what the character would do". It's a poor and arrogant excuse.

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by Hound » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:04 pm

I do not know what Sweetja is thinking so I can't speak for him. But, you are right in that the ridge is an elevated, steep incline.

The Kobalds recieve a very slight bonus to their rolls because they have the "high ground" on the palyers (well the 12 charging down it anyways.) Running up the ridge becomes a hiddering terrain, which reduces one's speed, and distance able to becovered.

Squee might be able to make an acrobatics check to counter the terrain. It is in the realm of possibility for him to make it there, just very difficult. If this were D&D however he would trigger like 6 attacks of oppertunity.

That said archers can be pretty deadly, and from a tactical point of view it is smart to crush them. Especially when you see a monk able to punch everyone arond him, and an orge swing a giant mace and make two kobolds into red bloody mist.

Moving on.

Twice now Epic, you have made claims that squee in the weakest in combat. Am I completely blind here?

I can see how your build is potentially abusive, and scares me, but his build can be just as deadly, and makes me wonder if I should get him to make a few minor edits.

He is at +7 to hit, +7 damage, & weaken strength or stamina, he crits on an 18 to 20, he is a 19 DC to hit, +5 toughness, he has luck 3 for re-rolls, he has high acrobatics and agile feint to hit easier. Dude has a pretty damn good chance of taking people down.

Am I missing something that says his character sucks at fighting?
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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by Evolución » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:22 pm

He also has Hide in plain sight, with a stealth of +14 and favoured on hitting unaware opponents, can take all out attack and power attack for extra stabby stabby prowess and don't forget his affliction imposing toxin.

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by EPIC » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:57 pm

I didn't say he sucks at fighting, I said he's the weakest combativly.

In a straight fight, he'd get owned in quick order compared to every other character.

I mean, here's my analysis of the character combat capability (Keeping in mind this is for combat, not social interactions, puzzle solving, or really anything other than fighting.)

Mordu: As befitting a monk, has great mobility which should only get better as we get more points to enhance our abilities. His Five Storms and R.W.A.M attacks are potent, one being an area and the other being multi, giving he the ability to fight out numbering odds with ease, and with his Tiger Claw, he can punch through even the heaviest defenses. A bit of a glass cannon though, as hard as he is to hit, he's not well suited to take the hit, though he can trance when he's got time to heal back up in short order.

Tutek: Is a pretty standard powerhouse. He's a brick wall that packs a punch. Boasting the highest toughness and damage attacks of the party, he's also primed for grappling as well, making him a dangerous opponent. Strongest member of the party easily and a strong contended for the hardest to take down. All he really lacks is versatility in tactics, but he can punch through most tactics with brute force anyways..soo.....yeah.

Charis: Area affliction attacks(thankfully with selective) give her great potential for wrecking an opposing force's day. She also has an attack very similar to my Crusader Strike. Not quite an offensive juggernaut or anything, but her afflictions are great support. Also a little bit of a glass cannon, she can't take a hit very well, but she can heal herself which makes up for it.

Liguria: What he lacks in force he makes up for in versatility. Various weapons for various ranged, superiority in water each with fair damage, and he's got balanced defenses so he can take hits reasonably well. He's got no particular strength or weakness, making him one of the weaker fighters, but at the very least an average fighter.

Silver: Her key ability is handling damage. She can take a lot of it and deal with it very well. Her toughness is slightly lower than a traditional tank would be, but her healing skills make up the difference. Her offense is somewhat lacking though, but she also has an option to aid her mobility. She lacks area or multitrgetting attacks, but especially when turtling with her Protection Domain, she easily take top prize for tanking/defense.

Squee: All his offense comes from a weapon that can be removed with a simple disarm. Now...this is also true of Cheris, though she has some other abilities that can be of use in combat even without her Songblade abilities, Squee does not. His toughness is lower so he doesn't take hits well and has no means of mitigating or dealing with the damage. He can move abnormally fast (seriously, 120ft a round with no apparent reason for it), but is restricted to the ground. His poisons can be potent, specifically the weaken stamina since that can kill outright if it brings an enemy below -5 stamina, but really....a single point immunity protects from that. And his stealth ability, not assuming he takes 10 for a reliable 24, it's defeated by an enemy making an opposed perception roll. He can feint and trick, but again he's got to beat the enemy's defenses for it, and even then, that's a two turn tactic while almost everyone else could just cut them down.


So what is my tier listing of the combat potential of the characters;
1. Tutek: Overall best damage and hardest to hurt
2. Mordu: Most versatility for doing damage and mobility
3. Silver: Hardest to take down completely
4. Charis: Best support abilities
5. Liguria: Average at best, but no real weak points.
6. Squee: Stealthy and tricky combat style, but easily defeated with a disarm.


Don't take this to mean I think Squee is useless. Combat isn't everything. He has skills that make him useful in unique ways. I did say he's a weak fighter, but I've also said he's a good build.
Last edited by EPIC on Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by sweetja713 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:58 pm

Quick post from my phone i understood there's more than one archer so i didn't see a problem w more than one player going after them that's like saying since the others attacked the main mob i shouldn't go after any of them. Second squee sure as heck isnt interested in a fair fight and attacking archers up close seems much more cowardly than staying tho fight hand to hand against a mob while arrows are flying down

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by EPIC » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:08 pm

sweeja, You ran through, THROUGH a mob of twice as many kobolds as there are archers, to put yourself in a much easier position for them to shoot you right up close.

If I were playing your character, I'd have broken through one of the sides of the mabush that only had 6 kobolds, hamstrung one of them with a poison blade using Move-By Action, then hid in the bushes to pick enemies off from the outside.

Fortunately this isn't D&D, because like Hound said...in normal circumstances, you'd just just gotten yourself pincushioned by attacks of opportunity, but at the same time, archers don't take attacks of opporunity for shooting you point blank in the face with an arrow...

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by Hound » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:39 pm

The attacks of oppertunity I mentioned are from the fighters he would have had to pass to climb the slop, of course acrobatics include tumble which is how you avoid it.

To help squee with his disarm issue, and make it cheaper by having the poisons remain a device in powers, linking them to weapons, maybe adding quirk, requires a move action to switch between the array to count as coating a weapon with a new poison. Then taking an equipment sword as "master built dagger" and grabbing shuriken.

With points saved, up throwing mastery

now you can be lethal at range and close, doesn't matter if you lose a weapon, you have others and you still have your viles of poison hidden on your body.

Maybe grab second chance for disarm attempts.

My two cents.
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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by EPIC » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:45 pm

That makes more sense, Just add Activation(Move) on each array slot so when he switches he needs to spend a move action. At the same time though, it goes from Easily Removable to Removable which increases the cost as well, so he's not really making it cheaper, and he's still pretty helpless without a weapons to apply his poisons to.

And against anyone/anything with immunity to poison, he's pretty boned.

Also, I mis-spoke. I forgot Shrinking reduces his speed for each size catagory, so having speed 2 really only brings him up to 60ft per round.

Still abnormally fast without an explanation for it when he should be slower due to his size, but it's still not 120ft

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by EPIC » Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:59 pm

Oh, just so you know, I'm changing my action. She called the archers and Squee ran off after them anyways.

Tactically, we only need one person on the archers (Despite running through the kobolds would probably have at least some of them turn around) and Silver is not particularly inclined to assist Squee.

Since i act after him in init, I feel inclined to change my action due to something happening earlier in the init.

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by Hound » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:00 pm

Well I base things of D&D so at best it will be half effects to show resistance, not too many things are straight up immune.

I am on a phone doing laundry so forgive me but I am doing math be what I remember.

Currently the cost is 11 per array with two Alts making it 13

easy to remove makes the total cost like 9?

If he takes hard to remove, just uses weaken and two Alts with requires activation... That is 5 points?

Frees up 4 points?

Grabs a sword to replace dagger, and alt weapon shuriken is 5 ep, or 1 pp

add 1 rank to daggers clost combat, add the remaing 5 ranks to throw. Your throw won't be as good as your dagger but you still can be effective at range and with move by action, keep clear of people.

I would also change your speed 2 to a hard to remove device boots of speed/Hermes/mercury what ever.

Maybe find other things to save on and grab the second chance disarm or improve throwing.
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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by EPIC » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:15 pm

Squee's poisons, taking out the Dagger damage he added to each array slot, as well as the array slot for a non-poisoned attack, is 7pp with 2AE, so 9pp.

Making it Removable, it only 8pp (still better than the 12 is was)

He can save one more point by adding Activation to each slot of the array so it's a move action to switch poisons. And he should do this so they are not ALWAYS active on his weapon. He can "wipe the poison off" by switching array, but not using the move action to activate the new poison. A bit of a cheap loophole since normally he'd need the use the +1 version of Linked so he could turn the linked effect off and on.

So he could then buy an equipment dagger, maybe some throwing weapons, use the other three points to support those like you suggested.

Adding Removable to Speed 2 won't decrease the cost since they don't have at least 5pp in it, but it does make more sense than an innate speed 2 for no particular reason. Rogues don't get any speed bonuses. Monks and Barbs only really unless it's racial, but goblins move slower than human base..so, yeah.

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by Ryan M. Danks » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:33 pm

I'm coming late to this, but it really feels like Squee isn't what other players had in mind and so he is being forced to change? The GM did pick the character, and I don't see two players attacking the same group of creatures that still outnumber them (especially with the new house rule on Takedown) as bad form at all.

Just my opinion, but I feel Sweetja has been unfairly targeted in every scene thus far, which is saying something, since this is scene two.

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Re: D&D: No Humans Allowed! (OOC)

Post by whiteprofit » Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:42 pm

I agree with the above.
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