[3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Millennium » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:00 pm

I suppose everyone was waiting on me getting back from the weekend. I'll have something new up tomorrow (Monday)

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:54 pm

Before I can get enthusiastic about the addition of Storm Queen, I'm going to want to give the build a thrice-over. I do not, unfortunately, have a lot of faith in Belial's sense of the appropriate when it comes to M&M3e builds... will do that later tonight.

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Hound » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Lord Fell wrote:Before I can get enthusiastic about the addition of Storm Queen, I'm going to want to give the build a thrice-over. I do not, unfortunately, have a lot of faith in Belial's sense of the appropriate when it comes to M&M3e builds... will do that later tonight.



Things I notice off the top of my head... she can hit in a cloud up to 16 miles large, any and every target she wants, but only the targets she wants for damage 4. Which means she can kill an entire city of normal humans should she so desire.

Her blast with extended range and homing, can shoot... 24,000 ft

Just using her super strength automatically activates her affliction...

She is toughness shifted to the maximum allowed. Giving her 15 toughness and 9 dodge/parry. Like wise she is 9 to hit and 15 damage on her main attacks.

However she is a flier and has favored environment Aerial, which simply means being air borne gives her +2 to hit.

That is like saying my favored environment is "being on the planet earth" so, so long as I remain in the atmosphere, I gain a +2 to hit.

She also has all-out attack. Since she isn't TRYING to dodge attacks, she is toughness focused, she can do the +5 trade off's

Giving her +4dodge/parry, +15 toughness, with a +16 to hit, and a +15 damage.

She is... in a word, insane. She can kill most players in one or two hits, and she has an insanely good chance of hitting.

My character which is dodge focused, has a 24 to hit DC. She only needs to roll an 8 to hit her. That's a 65% chance to hit. Her damage is +15! that is a DC of 30. Since I am dodge focused, which SHOULD under normal circumstances mean she is hard to hit, her toughness is only a 9.

It is impossible to ignore this damage, and on a good day, she is only Staggered, on a bad day she is killed/knocked out in a single hit.

I get it, this is Superman vs. Batman thing.

Still, I find what Belial does to be, while "in line with the rules" but always pushing them to the point where its no fun playing with her
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby RedBstrd » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:27 pm

Lord Fell wrote:Before I can get enthusiastic about the addition of Storm Queen, I'm going to want to give the build a thrice-over. I do not, unfortunately, have a lot of faith in Belial's sense of the appropriate when it comes to M&M3e builds... will do that later tonight.


Hmmm, yeah. He/she's a good player but looking over the sheet, some things should probably be toned down. That's ultimately up to our GM but hopefully Belial666 will agree with some of the objections.

Hound wrote:Things I notice off the top of my head... she can hit in a cloud up to 16 miles large, any and every target she wants, but only the targets she wants for damage 4. Which means she can kill an entire city of normal humans should she so desire.


...Three times. Since it is Area (Cloud), it has an effect on the second round. Since it is Secondary Effect, it has an effect on the third round. So, yeah, an entire city of mundane humans could we wiped out by it. On the other hand the inherent downside is that an entire city of mundane humans would be wiped out by it if she used it. In order to take advantage of Selective, a character must be able to perceive their targets accurately. Anyone with concealment due to cover and so on couldn't be excused as a target, meaning that the collateral damage of using that power in most cases would be... extensive.

There are ways to tweak it to avoid the collateral damage, but since it hits 3 times at that area of effect, I'd be inclined to say that the overall power should be revised to a large degree.

Hound wrote:Just using her super strength automatically activates her affliction...


Including during grappling...

Hound wrote:Her blast with extended range and homing, can shoot... 24,000 ft


That one doesn't bother me because as much since the real limitation is going to be her ability to perceive something. Of course, if she uses her dynamic array, she can delegate 6 pp to get her Senses and have a range increment of 10,000 ft. One or the other should be tweaked.

I do notice a few minor build things as well:
• The skills total 28 ranks (14 pp vs. the 13 pp on the sheet)
• The range has to be the same on the linked effects, so the Affliction in the Zeus's Thunderbolts power needs Increased Range. The total cost of that power is 76 pp, not 72 (plus 1 for being Dynamic). Her powers cost 97 pp in total, not 94 pp. With those two miscounts, the character is 4 pp over the limit.
• Her Senses don't need to add Accurate for touch since tactile senses are Accurate by default.

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:35 pm

So... haven't looked at Storm Queen myself yet, I got busy with some stuff... but it looks like you guys did a pretty thorough job.

Something else we can anticipate, since her Blast has a homing effect, is that she'll ALWAYS power attack for maximum, and trust to the Homing to raise up the likelihood of hitting... also there's always HP should a defense shifted character really prove hard to hit...

I should have a chance to give Storm Queen an audit tomorrow.

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:49 pm

ok, ended up staying awake a bit later than I planned...

So, one thing to note... in M&M3e, Power Attack does increase PL Effect, so both the Damage (blast, unarmed damage) and the linked affliction would be boosted. Given a previous discussion I had with Belial666 regarding character building, you can anticipate continuous +5/-5 power attacks, allowing for "double dipping." Again, using All Out Attack and Homing, and trusting to max-shifted Toughness to ignore damage.

Also, I don't understand: Ride the North Wind: Flight 10, Teleport 15 (extend), Sense 7 (acute, accurate, ranged, extend 3 touch) -I don't quite understand why Flight and Teleport are in the same Alternate Power, and I'm worried (confused?) that they may be (supposed to be) linked for some unspeakable purpose... also the Sense Group in the AP seems an oddity.

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Millennium » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:02 am

:shock: well that goes to show I'm still rusty with the system after my long hiatus. When I looked at the build everything looked kosher but I think I've been focused at a micro level, not considering how it all clicked together... Need to get my head back in the game!

Belial, I like the concept so hopefully you won't mind working to tweak out potentially abusive aspects.

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby RedBstrd » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:59 am

Lord Fell wrote:Also, I don't understand: Ride the North Wind: Flight 10, Teleport 15 (extend), Sense 7 (acute, accurate, ranged, extend 3 touch) -I don't quite understand why Flight and Teleport are in the same Alternate Power, and I'm worried (confused?) that they may be (supposed to be) linked for some unspeakable purpose... also the Sense Group in the AP seems an oddity.


I think they're together for the perfectly legitimate reason of saving points by having them constructed as a "Multiple Power" AE. They all involve being in tune with nature (traveling on winds, sensing through using the winds to touch things, and so on). The senses in the group ensure that she can use the delegate a few points from one of the other Dynamic AEs to take advantage of extended touch. If she wanted to blast a visually concealed target, for instance, she could do a rank 14 Blast/Affliction with Senses (Extended 3 - Touch). Concealment doesn't help with touch (except concealment from cover), so it would be helpful for targeting invisible foes. Only incorporeal characters have concealment to touch.

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Belial666 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:44 am

Addressing the concerns now;

@caps manipulation;
If your primary concern is Power Attack + All Out Attack combos, I'll simply drop those two advantages.

@lightning storm;
Yes, it can kill an entire city. Won't be used in the game because heroes don't do that - and a damage 4 effect isn't likely to help much against PL-appropriate opponents. The reason I put this ability there is that Alexandra has the power of Zeus - she's supposed to be able to call humongous storms. That doesn't mean Zeus went and leveled entire cities for the fun of it - just like any paragon won't lift a thousand-ton boulder into orbit and perform orbital kinetic bombardment.

@One with the North Wind;
There is no nefarious reason Flying+Teleportation were put together other than the "I can discorporate into wind and form anywhere else" trick. Rethinking things, I realized a rank of Insubstantial or maybe Permeation would work a bazillion times better and be three times cheaper and more fitting to flavor.

@pricing errors;
The sheet was written once during application and hasn't been revised since. I'm fixing those.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Millennium » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:42 pm

So I've just skipped to the start of the next scenario. Assume Storm Queen is in on this one, I'll confirm Metal's replacement soon.

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:03 pm

I don't really think Belial's changes are going to be adequate as stated. I think the problem here is as simple as reading his signature -he's the Tactician. He's going to work those rules to maximum advantage, because that's his mindset.

Instead of tweaking the character to deal with our stated problems (and I don't think the list Belial indicated he was going to work on was at all complete) I would suggest more of a rebuild. Decide what the character is (A Paragon that can wield the power of Zeus/Storms), then build to concept rather than building to maximum effectiveness. Absolutely meet Caps, but my big concern about a character with a power designed to kill an entire city is that eventually she's going to kill an entire city. With the PL we're at, and the points available, you can make a plenty powerful character without having to resort to complicated looking power structures, with craploads of Feats.


We haven't heard anything from Mr.Mellow? That's kind of disappointing...

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby RedBstrd » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:53 pm

Lord Fell wrote:... but my big concern about a character with a power designed to kill an entire city is that eventually she's going to kill an entire city.


Party pooper! :twisted:

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Hound » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:03 pm

I agree with lord fell.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Belial666 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:26 pm

Changes done;

1) Removed Power Attack and All-Out Attack.
2) Removed homing from lightning bolts and lowered them one rank.
3) Removed the big storm entirely.
4) Put senses into its own alternate effect.
5) Removed teleportation.
6) Changed flight into a "windform" effect.
7) Raised her skills a bit.
8.) Changed Divine Might to be just strength, with the bonus that its damage is lasting, to reflect the electricity without having any of the problems associated with a strength-linked affliction.
9) Fixed any pricing issues for her stats.

One thing I'm not changing is Favored Environment: Aerial. Adan Strange, Blood Eagle, Dawnstar, Gizmo, Fire, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hawkwoman, Red Tornado, Vanguard, Silver Swan, Vaporlock, Zauriel. Over a dozen heroes with flying of various types and favored environment: aerial/flying/airborne in only just two books. There are also another dozen people with favored environment plus the ability to create their environment.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:13 pm

Here's a link to the character.

hmm...

I think the main problem I have with Flying characters taking Favoured Environment: Aeriel is how easy it is to qualify for the advantage. I honestly don't care how many examples from the book use it, if it's as easy as activating flight (and hovering a few feet off the ground) to use, then it's just not a valid Feat (get too much advantage too easily). If what "Aeriel" was were more carefully defined say, Flying at a height above the skyline or treeline of the surrounding area suddenly, there's enough limitation to warrant a bonus.

I don't actually mind the notion of Affliciton being linked to enhanced strength -and this isn't a flip/flop, I never referenced it before. It's a construct I've used to describe someone who can hit so hard that... well, the target isn't just clobbered, they're afflicted. I think I (personally) prefer it to adding Secondary Effect to the damage -a Fortitude based Affliction tied to strength could easily be described as "thunderous punches" or "electrified fists," but Secondary effect doesn't fit a lot of what plain old strength is supposed to be doing.

I guess one of the concerns I have, is that this is a really big dynamic pool. I tend to be suspicious of Belial, and having such a large pool of shiftable points seems like it's a loophole waiting to be lubed and stretched.

Having said that, the changes made are in the right direction. I think I'd still prefer that the DAP be smaller, and the character fleshed out better in terms of skills.


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