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[3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby insaniac99 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:34 pm

I'm posting mostly to say that I'm reading and still here, I will make a character post tomorrow as I doubt I will have time tonight, since I'm going on a one-day field trip to a city 4 hours away and leaving in about 10 minutes.

I personally feel that the degree to which Belial's character is being picked apart a little unsettling, but this is perhaps because with my face-to-face games we have a hardline stance of whoever is the GM at the time makes the rules and if you have a problem with that, you talk to the GM privately after the fact. With multiple people making judgments on the build, and making judgment's on Belial's own personality, it makes me a little uncomfortable. As long as it is supported via the rules and the GM hasn't explicitly house-ruled on the matter, who are the players to complain about it? They could technically do the same thing and everyone probably has something that makes them more powerful than first glance would show in their character, though I would not know for sure since I haven't read anyone's sheet beyond the background.

I do not feel the need to show everyone up and as long as I have my small niche and I don't care if another player is extremely effective in a couple areas. It isn't like we are doing cage fights against each other, we are working together as a team; did Captain America's player complain about Thor's hammer or Iron Man's never ending line of suits?
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby RedBstrd » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:58 pm

insaniac99 wrote:I'm posting mostly to say that I'm reading and still here, I will make a character post tomorrow as I doubt I will have time tonight, since I'm going on a one-day field trip to a city 4 hours away and leaving in about 10 minutes.

I personally feel that the degree to which Belial's character is being picked apart a little unsettling, but this is perhaps because with my face-to-face games we have a hardline stance of whoever is the GM at the time makes the rules and if you have a problem with that, you talk to the GM privately after the fact. With multiple people making judgments on the build, and making judgment's on Belial's own personality, it makes me a little uncomfortable. As long as it is supported via the rules and the GM hasn't explicitly house-ruled on the matter, who are the players to complain about it? They could technically do the same thing and everyone probably has something that makes them more powerful than first glance would show in their character, though I would not know for sure since I haven't read anyone's sheet beyond the background.


It's good that you're still with us.

As far as the character review goes, my impression is this: existing players have an interest in making sure a game stays enjoyable, especially when it's a game that can move slightly more slowly due to the game schedule (we've agreed to play in a game that won't move forward much on weekends). Making sure that a submission isn't going to lead to some game-changing results (like wiping out inhabited cities) seems like a reasonable response.

That said, I like Belial666 as a role player, welcomed him/her to the game, previously complimented him/her on the choice of pictures for the character, and didn't look at the build until a fellow player raised an objection to it. Now that it's a point of open discussion, I see no reason not to voice my opinions as long as they are either constructive or potentially humorous.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby RedBstrd » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:06 pm

Belial666 wrote:Changes done;

8.) Changed Divine Might to be just strength, with the bonus that its damage is lasting, to reflect the electricity without having any of the problems associated with a strength-linked affliction.


Thank you for working to address some of the things that bothered other players. I don't have the time/motivation to look over the character much but I should note that Secondary Effect only works on instant duration powers. Enhanced Ability is sustained duration.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:17 pm

Hound wrote:Still, I find what Belial does to be, while "in line with the rules" but always pushing them to the point where its no fun playing with her

Regarding my concern(s) over the build, I think Hound hit it on the head here. When one player is "too effective" it really detracts from what everyone else can do, and fun is diminished for all.

I'm not saying that Millennium should uninvite Belial, but maybe Storm Queen shouldn't make an appearance until she passes the smell test.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby MrMellow » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:40 am

Going to take a moment here and apologize for my absence. Things have not turned out great the last week...

The long and short of it is that I was in a car accident, and I've just now gotten home, and will hopefully be going back to work some time next week. I'm having a bit of trouble typing, seeing as how my right arm (which, of course, was my good one...) is not up to the task quite yet, so I'm a bit slow.

I'm really only here just to announce my return back home and to the forums, and regarding any sort of comeback to the game I'll just pledge to go with whatever sort of decision Millennium ends up making.

My apologies for having caused this delay, and I hope you'll all have a good continued game and a good evening.
“That all men are equal is a proposition to which, at ordinary times, no sane human being has ever given his assent.”
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby RedBstrd » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:37 am

MrMellow wrote:Going to take a moment here and apologize for my absence. Things have not turned out great the last week...

The long and short of it is that I was in a car accident, and I've just now gotten home, and will hopefully be going back to work some time next week. I'm having a bit of trouble typing, seeing as how my right arm (which, of course, was my good one...) is not up to the task quite yet, so I'm a bit slow.


It's sad to hear that you had to go through that experience. At the same time, it's good that you're relatively ok and will be rejoining us at some point.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:55 am

I think I would like to see Metal return. Ideally you'll be able to play right away, even if (perhaps) you can't make long posts.

I'd also like to know what you thought of my suggested revisions to Metal -I was worried you were offended that I was presumptuous enough to rebuild him entirely. Then your continued absence seemed to confirm that, so I was anxious that I'd caused offense.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Millennium » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:03 pm

Mellow, you were in a car accident; Absolutely no apology required. In the circumstances I'd be a colossal ass for dropping the character. I'm happy to fold Metal into the background, with me maybe NPCing him until you feel you're ready to jump in. No pressure on it at all.

In response to Insaniac. I understand how some of the criticism may seem harsh, and I'm sorry as the GM if Belial feels that way as well, but at the moment I'm more than willing to welcome constructive criticism on builds from other players. I've just got back into things after over a year of inactivity and the fact is I'm still missing things on builds I think are kosher, so I'm willing to take all the help I can get.

With all that said, I've had a hell of a day today (got back from work and had to deal with a flood in my house) so I'm going to have a look Belial's revised build tonight, and probably come back with comments tomorrow. If anyone wants to keep the IC thread moving and respond to the message I'm more than happy for that to go down :-)
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Belial666 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:32 pm

RedBstrd wrote:As far as the character review goes, my impression is this: existing players have an interest in making sure a game stays enjoyable, especially when it's a game that can move slightly more slowly due to the game schedule (we've agreed to play in a game that won't move forward much on weekends). Making sure that a submission isn't going to lead to some game-changing results (like wiping out inhabited cities) seems like a reasonable response.

That someone has the ability to do something does not mean said something will be actually done. For example, Gervais can lift almost half a million tons and fly at 2 miles/round. And yet he hasn't picked up any hundred-floor skyscrapers or supercarriers or small hills and dragged them laterally through the cityscape at 1.5 times the speed of sound or let them fall from orbit so they hit like asteroids.



If you're worried about Storm Queen doing any city-breaking stuff, don't. Flavor and common sense take precedence over stats in such situations and even in the other game where I am playing a very powerful character who actually suggests mass destruction every so often, she only got to blast a few Sentinels. The reason for that is that despite the jokes and her actual abilities, leveling cities is (mostly) pointless and (almost always) abhorrent.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Spectrum » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:02 pm

Sorry for interrupting.

MrMellow, glad you're back!

Since Hoop is getting put back onto the shelf for the foreseeable future- I need to exorcise this song (Disturbed's cover of Land of Confusion). from my system. It runs through my mind every time that I read this game.

Have a great game.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:55 pm

If we're posting songs to celebrate the return of Metal, I'll bite too.

Belial666 wrote:That someone has the ability to do something does not mean said something will be actually done. For example, Gervais can lift almost half a million tons and fly at 2 miles/round. And yet he hasn't picked up any hundred-floor skyscrapers or supercarriers or small hills and dragged them laterally through the cityscape at 1.5 times the speed of sound or let them fall from orbit so they hit like asteroids.

Ok. I've got a problem with this whole post.

Gervais (Bicep) can indeed lift that much weight. The purpose of having that much Super Strength + Power Lifting is solely for the purpose of... lifting a lot of weight. He can also fly that fast... actually, I think he's slower than that. Anyways... the purpose of being able to fly fast is to be able to go from place to place. Conversely, Storm Queen was built with a singular Power with only one discernable use: the ability to execute a city. Now, while you say that "That someone has the ability to do something does not mean said something will be actually done." but... really? My instinct tells me that you have such a power, and are so defensive about keeping it, that you have a specific notion about how and when you will use it.

I admit that I'm biased by our past discussions about character building... so I'm not giving as much benefit of the doubt as maybe I should... but I also think we've made some progress in terms of what your character started out as (no where near as heinous as other characters you've made) and how your character looks now (almost playable). I also think that it would probably improve our understanding of each other if we did move on to play together -at least so I can interact with you in terms of character (role play) vs. mechanics (roll play).
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Belial666 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:05 pm

Question; whether Storm Queen has that power or not, what would prevent her from destroying a city with a power stunt if she wanted to? Even someone with a fairly standard power that thematically fits could stunt. Like the Hulk or Superman pounding the ground to get an earthquake. Or someone with fire powers getting a rain-o-fire - a concentration duration penetrating damage 1 burst area 14 could burn every civilian structure within sixty miles in under a minute with a single powerstunt off a fire control ability costing less than 20 points.
So if we want the city destroyed, three or four people in the group can already do it. The express reason Storm Queen had the power to create massive storms had nothing to do with the actual ability to level cities (which is ridiculously easy) but because control over storms is part of Zeus' abilities in mythology. You expect a god of storms to be able to conjure a storm, no?



Ultimately, I'm not defending the specific power - but my playstyle. Regardless of what I actually build into a character or what I am discussing OOC, have you seen me do gamebreaking stuff IC? And if I don't, why does my character's ability to destroy a city is any more relevant than anyone else's ability to destroy that city if they ever wanted to - when we're not going to do it?
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby RedBstrd » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:32 pm

Belial666 wrote:
RedBstrd wrote:As far as the character review goes, my impression is this: existing players have an interest in making sure a game stays enjoyable, especially when it's a game that can move slightly more slowly due to the game schedule (we've agreed to play in a game that won't move forward much on weekends). Making sure that a submission isn't going to lead to some game-changing results (like wiping out inhabited cities) seems like a reasonable response.


That someone has the ability to do something does not mean said something will be actually done.

If you're worried about Storm Queen doing any city-breaking stuff, don't.


My post was in response to Insaniac99's question on why we, as fellow characters, care at all about builds submitted by newer players. I suggested that if a potential player submits a build which is ripe for abuse, then we have legitimate interests in making sure something destructive to the overall game doesn't happen.

I think that's a reasonable position for any of us to have.

For me personally, you agreed to scrap the city-destroying power, so that alleviated my biggest source of unease with the build. Sure, you could power stunt in something abusive (particularly with the large pool of pp in your array), but my larger concern was that you had a power explicitly designed to be abusive - which also would have probably led to non-heroic results if used. Since you agreed to make that change, I'm not sure that we have any serious grounds for debating each other at this point. If it's just a matter of principle, hopefully you can acknowledge the difference between something designed to be that game-changing and players having the possibility of trying a power stunt to accomplish something on a similar scale. I can see why you might feel defensive with the build criticism coming in, but it's definitely not personal with me. As I noted before, I didn't even look at your build until two other players raised objections. I don't have any experience with any of the issues that Lord Fell references, so I'm neutral in that regard. Likewise, my experiences with you in our Pentacle Pact game have been positive, so I'm happy to have you as a fellow player.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Lord Fell » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:21 pm

Belial666 wrote:The express reason Storm Queen had the power to create massive storms had nothing to do with the actual ability to level cities (which is ridiculously easy) but because control over storms is part of Zeus' abilities in mythology. You expect a god of storms to be able to conjure a storm, no?
The power you want is called Environment. Look into that. Of course, there's also nothing saying that you couldn't link a damage effect to a Storm, to indicate that it is a particularly violent storm... this would probably be more descriptive of the power you want and have some utility.

Belial666 wrote:Even someone with a fairly standard power that thematically fits could stunt. Like the Hulk or Superman pounding the ground to get an earthquake. Or someone with fire powers getting a rain-o-fire - a concentration duration penetrating damage 1 burst area 14 could burn every civilian structure within sixty miles in under a minute with a single powerstunt off a fire control ability costing less than 20 points.
I think that the fact that you have thought this through is just more indication that we're on different wavelengths as players.

Belial666 wrote:Ultimately, I'm not defending the specific power - but my playstyle. Regardless of what I actually build into a character or what I am discussing OOC, have you seen me do gamebreaking stuff IC? And if I don't, why does my character's ability to destroy a city is any more relevant than anyone else's ability to destroy that city if they ever wanted to - when we're not going to do it?
Admittedly, there aren't a lot of examples of this. Most GMs look at your builds, and just don't want anything to do with you as a player. Horsenhero expressed to me in PM that he kind of regretted accepting Asha into Infinity Inc. He found as a GM that a character with the ability to see absolutely everything within the limits of the horizon, and also move faster than any of his NPC villains made it extremely difficult to bring your team into an encounter in a way that was fun or fair. This is a conversation we had via PM regarding your playstyle, so you'll have to take my word for it that it happened... although I'm pretty damn sure that he discussed the same issue with you.
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Re: [3e]: The Sentinels [OOC]

Postby Belial666 » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:07 am

Sure.

But that would be a problem with any character that had the senses of, say, Superman. Or the mental awareness of Martian Manhunter. Both of those characters also are very physically powerful and very fast - so any character based off those two classic heroes would pose the "problem" you point out. So, if we consider their combination of powers to be problematic, anyone who wants to model their characters after two of the most well-known and popular heroes ever will also have a problem.



I don't buy that it is a problem. The guys who want to play superman and martian manhunter - type heroes will obviously be physically powerful and there's no problem with that. The guy who wanted to play Batman or The Flash should not complain that they can't do a direct physical fight as well as them - they should do indirect fights instead or focus on skill use because that's what they chose to play.
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