Binary powers as feats?

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
farik
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Post by farik » Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:40 pm

Belmonte wrote:I like the movement limit more than hardness. With the hardness limiter, a superheroic person at PL10 can't phase through ... steel. That's just odd.
That was our concern as well.
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

sunhound
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Post by sunhound » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:48 pm

Granted, it's a little odd. However, consider how many places are made out of solid steel compared to brick, concrete block, wood, or some combination of the previous mixed with iron or steel bars. Even then a phaser can attempt to navigate around the steel bar in a wall with an Acrobatics or Dexterity check.

VTransverse
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Post by VTransverse » Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:41 am

I like hardness limiter, as a concept. I hadn't considered it. Maybe Incorpeal could also be used as a limited Protection? At the moment, it seems you get a lot of effects for a 2 rank power. It's defensive, transformational, and a movement modifier...

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Post by BeZurKur » Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:33 am

The problem of the hardness limiter doesn't lie with the fix but with the hardness values, IMO. As for it serving as Protections as well, that's how DC Heroes handled it. It works great as a game mechanic but unfortunately, it doesn't reflect comics very well. An average PL 10 character couldn't automically phase through an average PL 10 attack.

Paragon
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Post by Paragon » Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:56 am

Belmonte wrote:I like the movement limit more than hardness. With the hardness limiter, a superheroic person at PL10 can't phase through ... steel. That's just odd.
What I did was have it effect the speed with which they phased through something, so they could go through their PL in hardness in an action. Still enough to make it desireable to have higher ranks, but it didn't stop lower ranks from using the power.
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sunhound
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Post by sunhound » Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:01 pm

The problem of the hardness limiter doesn't lie with the fix but with the hardness values, IMO.
That makes sense. I looked up the density of a number of real-world items and found that the Hardness stat in Mutants and Masterminds is not a fair simulation for density. That's not a slam on M&M, since the Hardness stat isn't meant to simulate density.

Here is a new list of the items with my suggested density values ranging from 0 to 15. I arrived at these values by setting the material I found with the lowest density at 0 and the material I found with the highest density at 15. The rest was calculated thus: (current density / highest density) * 15 = Suggested Density Value for M&M. The values are rounded to the nearest whole number.

I leave 16 to 20 available for fictional super-materials such as adamantuim, vibranuim, or whatever. Please post comments and suggestions.

Material/Density Value (Suggested for use with the Incorporeal power)
Wood - 0
Ice - 1
Concrete - 2
Glass -2
Titanium - 3
Pure Iron - 5
Steel - 6
Pure Copper - 6
Pure Silver - 7
Lead - 8
Mercury - 9
Pure Gold - 13
Uranium - 13
Platinum - 14
Iridium - 15

(Oh, and 100 posts!)

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Post by The Shadow » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:09 pm

sunhound wrote:That makes sense. I looked up the density of a number of real-world items and found that the Hardness stat in Mutants and Masterminds is not a fair simulation for density. That's not a slam on M&M, since the Hardness stat isn't meant to simulate density.
And quite rightly so, since (as you note) gold is much denser than iron, but not nearly as hard.

I admire your work, but it's too much complication for my taste. If I were going to use a density-based restriction on Incorporeal (I prefer to limit it in other ways), I'd just use Hardness and call it good.
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