Binary powers as feats?

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Chris F
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Binary powers as feats?

Post by Chris F » Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:29 am

For some powers, notably Invisibility and Incorporeal, one could argue that a power rank is an unneccesary complication. Invisibility and incorporeality are binary conditions, not a matter of degrees: something is either invisible or it isn't. One invisible thing isn't more invisible than some other invisible thing. Likewise for incorporeality.

This viewpoint could be represented in-game by replacing these "binary" powers with super-feats, for example:

Invisibility
You can make yourself invisible at will.
Benefit: As a half action, you can make yourself inperceptible by ordinary sight. You have total concealment from everyone and everything that does not have some alternative way to detect you (infra-red, scent, super-hearing, etc.)
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time, you become inperceptible to another sense.

Consider also that in the RaW, SEE INVISIBLE, a single 2pp feat negates the invisibility power, no matter how high it's rank. This change would oppose two feats, rather than a power and a feat. Incorporeal/Ghost Touch could also be redesigned as feats.

Comments?
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Post by Anthony » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:24 am

I've considered doing that, though it makes problems for powers which include one of those abilities as an extra, or for applying extras to those powers, and many of the problem powers should be feat chains.

I'd actually do invisibility as 5 or more feats:

Concealment 25%: DC 4 to spot you, miss chance 19+
Concealment 50%: DC 8 to spot you, miss chance 17+
Concealment 75%: DC 12 to spot you, miss chance 15+
Concealment 90%: DC 16 to spot you, miss chance 13+
Concealment 100%: DC 20 to spot you, miss chance 11+
Plus, of course, you can take Extra Sense feats. The invisibility power would then grant one feat per level.

Note that, for the points, this is actually really powerful: -2 miss chance is about as good as +1 defense.

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Re: Binary powers as feats?

Post by chatty » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:02 pm

I had been considering this from the other side: Trying to find a way to make it harder to see through Invisibility/Obscure/Illusions than by just spending 2 points on each applicable FEAT. I haven't given it TOO much thought, but I know it's something I need to consider.
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Post by mofos21 » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:09 pm

First read-through, I thought this would be a good idea, for some of the reasons mentioned (feat opposed by feat, rank of the power having no effect on how the power functions, etc.).

Not that I'm completely against it now, but I did think of a few problems:

- As a super-feat, it would not be able to be nullified and/or drained. This was one method of getting around those powers.

- I believe (I don't have access to my book at work) that both invisibility and incorporeality were sustained powers. Meaning, that if the character got stunned, the powers would no longer function until they became un-stunned. As a super-feat, the character would now remain invisible or incorporeal even if stunned. It essentially gives the power a continuous extra.

So as superfeats, the only way to defend oneself against such powers is to take the See Invisible or Ghost Touch superfeats. Oh, and I guess mental attacks would still function. But this limits the amount of defense characters have against these powers, essentially making these "super-feats" more powerful than if they just stayed as powers.

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Re: Binary powers as feats?

Post by mofos21 » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:14 pm

chatty wrote:I had been considering this from the other side: Trying to find a way to make it harder to see through Invisibility/Obscure/Illusions than by just spending 2 points on each applicable FEAT. I haven't given it TOO much thought, but I know it's something I need to consider.
How about making those feats 1pp powers? Then when trying to see through invisibility/obscure/illusions, make a power check opposed by a power check by the character who used invisibility/obscure/illusion.

This would mean that more ranks in invisibility would make the character more difficult to spot, so it actually gives some meaning to have more than one rank in that power.

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Post by Chris F » Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:26 pm

mofos21 wrote:Not that I'm completely against it now, but I did think of a few problems:

- As a super-feat, it would not be able to be nullified and/or drained. This was one method of getting around those powers.
How about making it like the Immunity extra? Invisibility to one sense per rank. As a 2pp power, the cost works out the same.
mofos21 wrote:- I believe (I don't have access to my book at work) that both invisibility and incorporeality were sustained powers. Meaning, that if the character got stunned, the powers would no longer function until they became un-stunned. As a super-feat, the character would now remain invisible or incorporeal even if stunned. It essentially gives the power a continuous extra.
This is true. Easy fix: require a free action each round to maintain the effect, just as if it were a sustained power.
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Post by Huntsman » Fri Jun 03, 2005 1:01 pm

I could see this for Invisibility as I see it the way you describe it - You are either invisible or you are not. For Incorporeal, however, I think you can have degrees of "phasing". Higher ranks in Incorporeal can phase through denser materials (or hardnesses). A rank 1 could not, for example, walk through a starship hull made of superdense (Traveller games sneaking in) where as someone with 15 or higher could.

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Re: Binary powers as feats?

Post by chatty » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:11 pm

mofos21 wrote:How about making those feats 1pp powers? Then when trying to see through invisibility/obscure/illusions, make a power check opposed by a power check by the character who used invisibility/obscure/illusion.

This would mean that more ranks in invisibility would make the character more difficult to spot, so it actually gives some meaning to have more than one rank in that power.
This is about the most easily-implemented solution I could think of, myself. I am sure the players who have True Sight won't be happy, but the players with Illusion might be. The one who has both? I guess I will find out!
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Post by farik » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:18 pm

I have to admit the idea of each rank of Invisibility adding to the miss chance intrgues me. If it was a 5% miss chance per rank at rank 10 it would be 50% (the same as it is now) but at rank 20 (the often percieved maximum of MnM powers) it would be 100%. Meanwhile the munchkin who takes only 1 rank has a 95% chance of being hit if the attacker can guess where they are.

Thoughts?
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Post by Dragonblade » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:32 pm

Invisibility and Incorporeal or two examples of front loaded powers that the rank system of M&M doesn't handle very well. They need a flat cost.

Making either one of those a feat makes them far too cheap. I have a house rule where I simply require a minimum purchase of 10 ranks if you want either power. That works fine for me and keeps the game mechanics more or less intact without rewriting the rules or coming up some alternative cost structure.

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Post by chatty » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:34 pm

farik wrote:I have to admit the idea of each rank of Invisibility adding to the miss chance intrgues me. If it was a 5% miss chance per rank at rank 10 it would be 50% (the same as it is now) but at rank 20 (the often percieved maximum of MnM powers) it would be 100%. Meanwhile the munchkin who takes only 1 rank has a 95% chance of being hit if the attacker can guess where they are.

Thoughts?
I kind of feel like it should be called "Transparency."
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Post by BeZurKur » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:52 pm

I like the varying levels of Invisiblility too. Maybe even two DC's: one for stationary and another lower DC when moving, like the Predator.

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Post by sunhound » Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:56 pm

I'm with you on the Incorporeal power, Huntsman. As a house rule in my sessions, a player with Incorporeal must have enough ranks to equal or beat the Hardness score of the material through which they wish to phase.

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Post by farik » Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:35 pm

for incorporeal I like the houserule where you can only move your rank x5 ft per round through solid matter.
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Post by Belmonte » Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:27 pm

I like the movement limit more than hardness. With the hardness limiter, a superheroic person at PL10 can't phase through ... steel. That's just odd.
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