balanced powers?

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heratyk
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balanced powers?

Postby heratyk » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:09 pm

Have you noticed that some powers have effects directly comparable to other powers, but different point costs? for example:

Super-Wisdom costs 3pp and improves all Wis skills, plus will save. Super-Senses with Amazing Save (Will) does the same thing, but covers less than half the Wis-based skills for the same cost.

Telekinesis with a flaw limiting it to ferrous objects only costs half as much as Energy Control (Magnetic), which does the same thing.

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mgg
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Postby mgg » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:23 pm

It is true as far as magnetic control goes. Some people give the magnetic energy control a free extra, such as area.

Super senses includes search (int based) of course, and things like detecting forgeries. Also, if your GM is willing you can buy 1/2PL Super Wisdom with 1/2PL Super Senses as an extra. I wouldn't say it is as good as a flawed super wisdom but it is not directly comparable in the sense you use.

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Re: balanced powers?

Postby Circeus » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:30 pm

heratyk wrote:Super-Wisdom costs 3pp and improves all Wis skills, plus will save. Super-Senses with Amazing Save (Will) does the same thing, but covers less than half the Wis-based skills for the same cost.

Telekinesis with a flaw limiting it to ferrous objects only costs half as much as Energy Control (Magnetic), which does the same thing.


Actually, Super-Senses does not add to ALL wisdom-based skills, actually, the rolls it affects are mostly Spot, Listen and search and then some, like Scent rolls for tracking or survival, Forgery rolls to spot fakes and the likes. So it affects things Super-Wis doesn't too.

I do see your point for Energy Control (Magnetic), though. It's the only Energy Control that doesn't actually account for 2pp/rank. Even cold (Which should be defined as Slick) and gravity makes the line. You should feel free to add a flawed power of your choice. Deflection (Metal only) seems very fitting.

Have these two Energy Control (Cold and Magnetic) been corrected in the revised edition?

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Postby Marshal Law » Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:06 am

I'm not sure energy control - Magnetic is overpriced.

If it appears too weak, the easiest fix is to allow it to be used on all metals, not just ferrous ones. (Non-ferrous metal never seems to give Magneto a problem).

Metal objects are ubiquitous. Any weapons - especially mundane ones - are likely to be metal. Incoming projectiles are likely to be metal. The devices your enemies might rely on are very likely to be metal. Battle armour is likely to be metal. Vehicles are metal. Cybernetic implants? Metal. Super-science constructs? Probably metal.

Unless out in the wilderness, or in an area specifically designed to be metal-free, a character with this power will, basically, always be surrounded by metal. Its in out buildings, under our streets, and in our pockets.

Most of them would be ferrous in the first place, but with the relatively small tweak, you're golden.

****

Of course, the converse is to simply say to the would be TK "sorry, metals are so ubiquitous I don't think 'Metals only' is sufficiently limiting to count as a flaw."
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Postby InnocentBystander » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:21 am

Control (magnetic) is a little more versatile than just Tk (ferrous). With it you can neutralize every magnet in the area or make any piece of metal a magnet and magnets are in a lot of devices like eletrical engines (and internal combustion engines usually have an electrical engine for the ignition) speaker
If you have control(magnetic) you can turn a dynamo or an electric engine in a piece of junk without phisically destroy it, and then make it functional again, you could erase all the data from any magnetic support (with an extra I would even let rewrite them), you could mute any radio in the zone you are, turning the magnets in their speakers in simple metal pieces and other things that a creative player could come up with. Personally I think those things are not powerful enough to ask for an extra but your mileage can vary.

Then there is the pont of special effects being more versatile with Control (magnetic) the rationale for generate elettricity (energy blast) or magnetic fields(force field) or to ride the Earth magnetic field (flying) etc are simpler to come up with that not with TK(ferrous) but is debateable if the the potential acces to other powers is worth paying extra points.

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Postby mgg » Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:05 am

Those are really interesting ideas InnocentBystander, I think I will adopt them.

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grahf
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Postby grahf » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:26 pm

Powers are defined by their effects, so I do think it would be reasonable to give Magnetic Control another effect such as Neutralize (Electronics) or Energy Blast (metal objects). Ditto for Element Control Earth and Water.

If you want touch-range Possession you're better off applying the Range flaw twice, instead of using the Touch flaw provided.

The interaction between Shapeshift and its extras is kind of strange. Shapeshift with the Elongation, Movement, and Plasticity extras and the Slow and Limited-One Type flaws costs 2 pp/rank less and seems to have about the same effects as Elasticity with the Disguise extra.

Another minor thing I recently noticed is that flawed Super-Str is a bit better than Strike or Natural Weapon because it stacks with melee Weapons.

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Re: balanced powers?

Postby heratyk » Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:52 pm

Circeus wrote:Actually, Super-Senses does not add to ALL wisdom-based skills, actually, the rolls it affects are mostly Spot, Listen and search and then some, like Scent rolls for tracking or survival, Forgery rolls to spot fakes and the likes. So it affects things Super-Wis doesn't too.

Well, that was my point, super-senses DON'T cover all the skills that super-wisdom does, but has the same cost (once you factor out the will save bonus). I goofed, though - search is INT based, not WIS - but the basic contention still stands. Either super-wis is too cheap or super-senses are too expensive (I think probably the latter).
Circeus wrote:I do see your point for Energy Control (Magnetic), though. It's the only Energy Control that doesn't actually account for 2pp/rank. Even cold (Which should be defined as Slick) and gravity makes the line. You should feel free to add a flawed power of your choice. Deflection (Metal only) seems very fitting.

I agree that you can house-rule it into compliance, but it's flawed as written. Scramble electronics (as per incorporeal) would also make a worthy addition to magnetic control.

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Postby Circeus » Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:15 pm

Surge
Cost: 2pp
Action: Half
Range: Sight
Duration: Instant
You can cause electrical surges in turned on devices, causing overheating and short-circuit. Make a ranged attack roll as if you were attacking an object. If you attack a device held by a character, the character gets a Reflex save to protect the device. If you succeed the device fizzles and stop working until it is repaired requiring a Repair check with a DC equa to your Power + the amount by which you made your check. That takes 5 to 10 minutes. If you succeeds by 5 or more, the device is damaged, and the Repair Check takes at least an hour and requires replacing of pieces. If you succeeds by 10 or more, the device is destroyed: it catches fire, melts, explodes or other such dramatic effect. targetting a specific element in a device is good for a +5 on the DC.

Code: Select all

DC   Devices
10   Data on an unprotected computer and small electronics, separate pieces.
15   Business shielded computers, most other electronics appliences (microwave
   ovens, car electronic injections), light bulbs, neons
20   Most military hardware, large computers, home electric appliances (Washing
   machine, refrigerator)
25   Tempest-hardened computers
30   Cheyenne hardened computers


Antennas, power lines and such, as well as optic systems cannot be surged.

Stunts:
Surge Bonus: You are particularly good at surging some device (lights, cars, computers etc.), add +2 to your rolls versus these devices.

Dampen: You can choose to simply "stop" a device from working as long as you concentrate as if you had Neutralize.

Extras:
Slight: You can target specific element of a device without penalties.

Contagious: Devices directly connected to the targetted one are also affected.

Flaws:
Limited-Source: You can only surge devices that are connected to power lines

Destructive: You always destroy devices you surge. Any success is treated as if you'd succeeded by 10.

Touch: You must touch a device in order to surge it.

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mgg
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Re: balanced powers?

Postby mgg » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:44 pm

heratyk wrote:Well, that was my point, super-senses DON'T cover all the skills that super-wisdom does, but has the same cost (once you factor out the will save bonus). I goofed, though - search is INT based, not WIS - but the basic contention still stands. Either super-wis is too cheap or super-senses are too expensive (I think probably the latter).


A single super skill costs 1 point. The entire family of skill for an attribute costs 2 points. There isn't much wiggle room there.

In a 3:1 skill point game dropping super-senses to 1 point per level might make sense.

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Re: balanced powers?

Postby tesuji » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:48 pm

mgg wrote:
A single super skill costs 1 point. The entire family of skill for an attribute costs 2 points. There isn't much wiggle room there.

In a 3:1 skill point game dropping super-senses to 1 point per level might make sense.


Actually there is wiggle room. Skill stunts.

for a purist with the rules, its just buying super-skill then buying a secondary effect as a stunt fot 2 pp.

Buy Super-skill spot at +10 for 10 pp.
then buy PS: Super-skill listen+10 and the same thing for search+10 for 2 pp each.

Truthfully, the sense skills are not the best ones to model this way, since on could possibly use them at the same time, but sciences in a list or such work fine.

I just define them as "skill stunts" in my game and let them be allowed only for "related skills".
My Stupid Rule: If I would feel stupid describing a rule to my players, I will not use that rule.

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mgg
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Re: balanced powers?

Postby mgg » Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:54 pm

tesuji wrote:
mgg wrote:
A single super skill costs 1 point. The entire family of skill for an attribute costs 2 points. There isn't much wiggle room there.

In a 3:1 skill point game dropping super-senses to 1 point per level might make sense.


Actually there is wiggle room. Skill stunts.

for a purist with the rules, its just buying super-skill then buying a secondary effect as a stunt fot 2 pp.

Buy Super-skill spot at +10 for 10 pp.
then buy PS: Super-skill listen+10 and the same thing for search+10 for 2 pp each.

Truthfully, the sense skills are not the best ones to model this way, since on could possibly use them at the same time, but sciences in a list or such work fine.

I just define them as "skill stunts" in my game and let them be allowed only for "related skills".


Good point, but you're right about this not being the best way to model super senses. I don't want to ask the player which sense her character is using each time I need to roll a check.

It might work for certain hero concepts though. 'Eyes of a hawk!' 'Ears of a bat!' 'Nose of a basset hound!' Hmmm...


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