How do you gain an attack bonus ?

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rakshasa
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How do you gain an attack bonus ?

Postby rakshasa » Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:25 am

Hi, I just bought the core rules (silly me for not waiting fo the next edition). I'm currently browsing the boards to get a feeling of the main flaws of the system. Every system has its flaws, and the sooner you find them, the sooner you learn how to live with them.

So far I found that a solid foundation and a lot of GM leeway makes that game very supple, although not for weak GMs.

Some rules seem strange still, so I intend to gather opinions on several points (creating a new thread each time, to avoid clutter).

The worst flaw I found so far concerns the attack roll.

The Defense bonus uses the base defense bonus (up to PL), the normal dexterity bonus (up to +5), and can be modified by some powers (such as Super-Dexterity and Super-Speed, up to PL).

The Attack bonus uses the base attack bonus (up to PL), the normal strength bonus (up to +5), but no usual power can raise it further.

Ignoring the effects of various feats, and the base 10 in defense that counteracts the roll of a d20 for attack, that leaves a huge gap that can grows larger with power level.

Now I understand that Luck can apply to the attack bonus, but that seems a very clunky way to repair that problem.

Ideas ? Opinions ?

Rakshasa.

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farik
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Postby farik » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:02 am

here was one discussion

http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/ph ... t=accuracy

that generated this power

Accuracy
Cost: 2pp
Action: Free
Range: Personal
Duration: Instant

This power adds to either the character's ranged attack rolls or melee attack rolls. (This power does stack with Luck with respect to PL limits.)

Extra: This power also applies both ranged and melee attack rolls


Our group uses it for marksmen and (who take the ranged version) and brawlers (who take the melee version) if we had any mentalists they'd probably use it also. It works well for us and we've been playing for quite awhile.
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby ZeroGlobal2003 » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:05 am

This (and the problem of "Bulls-Eye" types) is why many have created the following power (or something similar):

Aim
Cost: 2pp.
Duration: Permanent

Choose melee or ranged attacks. With those attacks you gain a bonus to your your chosen type of attack roll equal to your ranks in Aim.

Extra: You add to both types of attack roll.


Optionally you could make this as an extra.


You also have to remember that a natural 20 always hits, and hero points can be spent to increase attack rolls as well. Also, this game is based around the "if I can't win, think of a different tactic" theme that most comic books follow. If the enemy has a super high Defense, then use an area effect and force a Reflex save, or use a mental attack and make them make a Will Save. Use a bull rush and knock them prone. Teleport them into the air so they drop and take damage. Drop a building on them.


Lots of ways to overcome a super high Defense.

Zero

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Re: How do you gain an attack bonus ?

Postby MLChance » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:05 am

rakshasa wrote:Now I understand that Luck can apply to the attack bonus, but that seems a very clunky way to repair that problem.

Ideas ? Opinions ?


You seem to have ignored feats such as Accurate Attack and Attack Focus. These improve attacks. Also, not every character concept justifies additional defenses such as Super-Dexterity. From what I've seen, the apparent disparity between attack and defense really isn't much a disparity except when dealing with characters deliberately min-maxed to be unhittable.
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rakshasa
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Postby rakshasa » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:49 am

Thanks for your input. I think I like the Accuracy solution.

I still think such a house rule is needed, as maxing dex, super-dex or super-speed and defense is certainly not min-maxing, but in my opinion an integral part of many speedsters concepts, and as such a pretty common occurrence.

I certainly hope that accuracy vs powered defense will not cause an arms race, forcing a majority of characters to take it in order to stay competitive.

Rakshasa.

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Postby ZeroGlobal2003 » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:54 am

Like I said above, you can have as high an AC as you like, and I can play a 10 Str, 10 Dex, +0 BAB character and still ruin his day. Think beyond punch-dodge-punch game play.

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Postby farik » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:55 am

rakshasa wrote:Thanks for your input. I think I like the Accuracy solution.

I still think such a house rule is needed, as maxing dex, super-dex or super-speed and defense is certainly not min-maxing, but in my opinion an integral part of many speedsters concepts, and as such a pretty common occurrence.

I certainly hope that accuracy vs powered defense will not cause an arms race, forcing a majority of characters to take it in order to stay competitive.

Rakshasa.


Like I said our group hasn't had a problem but we're all really big into character concept over battle optimization. Heck I have over a hundred minions statted out for my character and none of them are designed to help in a fight they just do research, manage my finances, and repair destruction after super fights so I can maintain my sterling image as a hero of the people.
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby Marshal Law » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:58 am

As soon as you add an Accuracy power, and somebody takes a few levels in it, you risk totally stuffing any character that *doesn't* focus on dodging, surely?

I'd stick with using the accurate attack feat for taking down the high dodge, low defence types.
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Postby rakshasa » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:31 am

The options in the regular game were not really clear to me, so I thank those that tried to convince me that no patching was needed.

Accurate attack : At PL 10, +5 to attack will not be enough to go against Super-speed +10, while -5 to damage will cripple your damage (even moderate Protection will stop that attack).

Using area attacks : unfortunately, high defense concepts usually come with similarly high reflex saves, which means you will again be reduced to quasi-harmless levels of damage (by the way I think save for half isn't really working for M&M).

Using other attacks : that of course is a good solution, but not every physical hero happens to also have mental powers. And I know speedsters will be common enough that a brick could feel cheated if he consistently was totally unable to connect.

You will note that the damage of Strength-based attacks being much higher than any other form of attack (up to PL+5 rather than PL), many players will choose physical attacks as their main offensive option, making the problem that much more obvious.

And as was said previously, some concepts should be able to hit most of the time, and that is clearly never happening without the introduction of Accuracy.

Rakshasa.

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Postby farik » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:31 am

Marshal Law wrote:As soon as you add an Accuracy power, and somebody takes a few levels in it, you risk totally stuffing any character that *doesn't* focus on dodging, surely?

I'd stick with using the accurate attack feat for taking down the high dodge, low defence types.


I have to disagree with you. We've had no such problems. Being able to hit is not the same thing as being able to damage. As the thread surrounbding the Accuracy powers discusses it really isn't different than taking something like "luck" and stripping it down to a single effect. Fearing that everyone takes accuracy is like fearing everyone will take protection it could happen but a GM really shouldn't let it.
One man's hobo booze is another man's fiiiine sippin' wine.



Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby mgg » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:48 am

rakshasa wrote:The options in the regular game were not really clear to me, so I thank those that tried to convince me that no patching was needed.

Accurate attack : At PL 10, +5 to attack will not be enough to go against Super-speed +10, while -5 to damage will cripple your damage (even moderate Protection will stop that attack).

Using area attacks : unfortunately, high defense concepts usually come with similarly high reflex saves, which means you will again be reduced to quasi-harmless levels of damage (by the way I think save for half isn't really working for M&M).

Using other attacks : that of course is a good solution, but not every physical hero happens to also have mental powers. And I know speedsters will be common enough that a brick could feel cheated if he consistently was totally unable to connect.

You will note that the damage of Strength-based attacks being much higher than any other form of attack (up to PL+5 rather than PL), many players will choose physical attacks as their main offensive option, making the problem that much more obvious.

And as was said previously, some concepts should be able to hit most of the time, and that is clearly never happening without the introduction of Accuracy.

Rakshasa.


So you advocate making the highest damage attacks also the most accurate? Why?

In any case, keep in mind that defense bonus can be easily lost by many means. One nice balance to home grown offense rules is to allow similar effects-- allow bluff, taunt, etc to strip off the extra offense.

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Postby farik » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:50 am

mgg wrote:In any case, keep in mind that defense bonus can be easily lost by many means. One nice balance to home grown offense rules is to allow similar effects-- allow bluff, taunt, etc to strip off the extra offense.


That's a legitimate idea.
One man's hobo booze is another man's fiiiine sippin' wine.



Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby rakshasa » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:55 am

I can live with a 5 points gap between muscle-powered attacks and the rest (with much grumbling on my part). That says something about the focus of the game.

But the gap in attack vs defense is as high as the power level ! That's not the same thing at all ! A 5 point difference to balance the difference in damage would be fine, though.

So no, I don't intend to make the most damaging attack the most accurate, but I'm more comfortable with "as accurate as the rest", because making the most popular form of attack frequently useless will cause more problems.

Rakshasa.

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Postby mgg » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:00 am

farik wrote:
Marshal Law wrote:As soon as you add an Accuracy power, and somebody takes a few levels in it, you risk totally stuffing any character that *doesn't* focus on dodging, surely?

I'd stick with using the accurate attack feat for taking down the high dodge, low defence types.


I have to disagree with you. We've had no such problems. Being able to hit is not the same thing as being able to damage. As the thread surrounbding the Accuracy powers discusses it really isn't different than taking something like "luck" and stripping it down to a single effect. Fearing that everyone takes accuracy is like fearing everyone will take protection it could happen but a GM really shouldn't let it.


... or fearing everyone will have a high defense together with a high protection in order to ignore area attacks.

Luck can only be used once per round (or divided between die rolls) that might be reasonable limit on an accuracy power.

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Postby farik » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:05 am

mgg wrote:
farik wrote:
Marshal Law wrote:As soon as you add an Accuracy power, and somebody takes a few levels in it, you risk totally stuffing any character that *doesn't* focus on dodging, surely?

I'd stick with using the accurate attack feat for taking down the high dodge, low defence types.


I have to disagree with you. We've had no such problems. Being able to hit is not the same thing as being able to damage. As the thread surrounbding the Accuracy powers discusses it really isn't different than taking something like "luck" and stripping it down to a single effect. Fearing that everyone takes accuracy is like fearing everyone will take protection it could happen but a GM really shouldn't let it.


... or fearing everyone will have a high defense together with a high protection in order to ignore area attacks.

Luck can only be used once per round (or divided between die rolls) that might be reasonable limit on an accuracy power.


You can normally only perform 1 attack per round anyway. The exceptions being things like autofire.

As a side note characters in our group that have had a lot of accuracy are usually not the same ones who dish out a huge amount of damage.
One man's hobo booze is another man's fiiiine sippin' wine.



Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.


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