Superspeed / Extra actions

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
User avatar
coyotegrey
Hireling
Hireling
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:39 pm
Location: the 405
Contact:

Superspeed / Extra actions

Postby coyotegrey » Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:49 pm

Not getting any extra actions from superspeed bothers me, so assuming that I want to add an extra effect to Superspeed (and Time Control or any other derivative power) this is what I came up with.

I looked around at the various effects given by powers and feats to gain extra actions. The power that gives the closest game advantage is Duplication. For 2 pts per rank, you get a number of duplicates who can each perform their own actions under your control. Seems pretty similar to having multiple actions.

Duplicates have a benefit and a hindrance beyond mere extra actions. They are hindered in that they need to be created and are vulnerable to being destroyed. Once destroyed they will then have to be recreated. However they have a major benefit in that they do not have any range they are limited to (allowing you to perform actions at vast distances from each other). These seem to cancel each other out to me.

Duplicates are cumulatively limited to having a total PL equal to the character's rank in the Duplicates power. For example, a Duplicates of 10 would allow you to make a PL 5 duplicate, a PL 2 duplicate and a PL 3 duplicate at the same time - or you could make 10 PL 1 duplicates, etc.

If you are still following me, this seems like under the same limitation you could have an Extra Actions extra (1 pt per rank) or an Extra Actions power (2 pts per rank). You would be limited to taking a total number of extra PL in actions equal to the power rank of Extra Actions or Superspeed. For each action, you get a full turn just like a duplicate would.

In other words, if you have a 10 rank energy blast and a 10 rank in superspeed you could gain up to 10 extra actions. If you took all 10, you would only make each at rank 1. If you took only 3 extra actions, you could make them at rank 4, 3 and 3. Or 5, 3 and 2 or whatever adds up to 10.

Does this make sense to anyone else? :)
Robert Burson

User avatar
Marshal Law
Superhero
Superhero
Posts: 1990
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:45 pm

Postby Marshal Law » Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:09 pm

Thats certainly a very sensible way of approaching it.

As an alternative, I've been toying with something similar myself, but I was going to use D&D style "iterative attacks" as the model. I had only been thinking of applying it to attacks, but I guess it could be applied to other actions too.

It would be an extra on super speed. For every 5 points of super-speed, you would get an additional partial action, but at -5.

So, at PL 1-4, nothing.

At PL 5 - 9, 1 extra partial action, but the roll required for the action is at -5

At PL 10-14, 2 extra partial actions, the first at -5, the second at -10.

At PL 15-19, 3 partial actions, the first at -5, the second at -10, the third at -15.

And at PL 20, a grand total of 4 extra partial actions, -5, -10, -15, -20.

Though maybe the penalties are too high for a supers game.

********

I havn't had time to think about balance, here - originally, I was thinking of it *only* being extra attacks, as per high levels in D&D, and thus only available as a full attack action. It probably needs a lot more thought - maybe it would need to be a 2 point extra, for example.
HAWK-Girl: Init +9; Melee: +8/+8; Def: +8 (Ff +2); Saves T/F/R/W +8/+5/+5/+5

User avatar
Strict31
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 7074
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: a huge, ever-growing, pulsating brain that rules from the centre of the ultraworld

Postby Strict31 » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:10 pm

Coyotegrey, I would like to ask you, are you referring to multiple actions during a combat round or outside of combat or both?Super-Speed allows you to perform routine tasks much quicker than normal, so if you're just talking about simple things like "turn on that switch, press that button and grab that vase, maybe the GM could give you some leeway during a combat round. As far as having extra actions to use for attacks, try using the Whirlwind Attack stunt from Spinning. Others have used what basically amounts to Strike with the Area extra.

Obviously, outside of combat it really wouldn't have much value, and mostly (it seems to me, anyway) it will be used for attacking, and there's already something for that. What's left over is non combat actions performed during a combat round(s). You could make it into an extra or power as you suggest, but it seems rather expensive for something already partially covered in the power description. I think your system would provide a good guide for taking multiple actions with Super-Speed's fast tasks Effect, but it just seems to cost too much for (what seems to me, at least to be) very little.

I'm not trying to say it's a bad idea by any means. I just think it would work better as a guideline for the existing components of the power. I think in that context, it fleshes out the fast tasks thing and provides a system by which it (fast tasks) can be fairly used.


Strictly Speaking

User avatar
MLChance
Disciple
Disciple
Posts: 687
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:11 am
Location: On the Flip Side
Contact:

Postby MLChance » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:24 pm

Strict31 wrote:Others have used what basically amounts to Strike with the Area extra.


Neat idea.

Strike +10 [Extras: Area, Selective; Cost: 4; Total: 40] would allow the hero to strike at all foes within 50 feet. Define the special effect as racing around real fast to bonk everyone.
Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
My MM Builds
Spes Magna Games

User avatar
Strict31
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 7074
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: a huge, ever-growing, pulsating brain that rules from the centre of the ultraworld

Postby Strict31 » Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:05 pm

MLChance wrote:
Strict31 wrote:Others have used what basically amounts to Strike with the Area extra.


Neat idea.

Strike +10 [Extras: Area, Selective; Cost: 4; Total: 40] would allow the hero to strike at all foes within 50 feet. Define the special effect as racing around real fast to bonk everyone.


yeah, but that cost, in addition to Super Speed is massive. Whirlwind Attack doesn't give you the range that area does, But does the job well enough.


Strictly Speaking

Circeus
Hireling
Hireling
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 5:53 pm

Postby Circeus » Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:16 am

MLChance wrote:
Strict31 wrote:Others have used what basically amounts to Strike with the Area extra.


Neat idea.

Strike +10 [Extras: Area, Selective; Cost: 4; Total: 40] would allow the hero to strike at all foes within 50 feet. Define the special effect as racing around real fast to bonk everyone.


I prefer reusing the Fusillade extra from Teleportation (Move-By attack is then a prerequisite) and voilà!

User avatar
coyotegrey
Hireling
Hireling
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2003 4:39 pm
Location: the 405
Contact:

Postby coyotegrey » Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:04 am

I guess I should have mentioned why I want extra actions for Superspeed. :oops:

My gripe is the inability to do more than one thing. All the multi attacks only allow you to execute the same attack over and over again. I think speedsters should be able to do more than one thing per turn. For example: tie the bad guy in wire, punch him thirty times, then make a cup of tea, grab a handy lawn chair and sit down drinking the tea. ;) Shouldn't be too much for someone who moves 10,000 times faster than a normal human or whatever. Now, for game balance, I know my example is exagerated....but being able to at least do 3 or 4 separate things would be nice.

Another simple example that doesn't seem possible in the rules: taking the guns out the hands of a few dozen baddies (or even just 6) and stacking them in a pile. Now, maybe you could make some sort of power that would let you do this, but why should you have to?

I love the rules the way they are, but they just feel a little inadequate when it comes to some things like superspeedsters. Particularly if you try to run a "realistic" superhero game. With that in mind, I am attemping to find a balanced way of allowing speedsters to do more.
Robert Burson

InnocentBystander
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:29 am

Postby InnocentBystander » Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:54 am

coyotegrey wrote:Another simple example that doesn't seem possible in the rules: taking the guns out the hands of a few dozen baddies (or even just 6) and stacking them in a pile. Now, maybe you could make some sort of power that would let you do this, but why should you have to?


You don't need to change the rules for that.
Disarm is an "attack" option. If you can do multiple attacks (with an area attack, for example) you can choose to make them all disarm attempts and drop the weapons somwhere is a free action.

User avatar
TerraFan
Supporting Cast
Supporting Cast
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:27 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Contact:

Postby TerraFan » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:57 pm

I can understand why you'd want speedsters to have extra actions, the comics are replete of such things, but I think that they'd rule the roost in an RPG setting too much if you did that.

As it is, defense bonus can be bought higher and quicker than attack bonus can. At PL 10, it's not difficult to have a speedster with a defense of 36, and it can go as high as about 47 at just pl 10 and each PL increase can increase that by 2.

A pl 10 attack bonus can be as high as about +21 or so and each PL increase will only increase that by 1.

(I only mention this to reinforce how good speedsters have it)

I had the unfortunate experience to play one session in a game where another guy had a speedster with duplication. He was acting on a completely retarded initiative and the 11 of him were swarming down making ramming attacks and mach one one move by punches on the baddies. There was more than one combat where all of the bad guys were down before the rest of the group had their initiative.

Now, that's an extreme case, and the player and GM in question were twits, but you're getting into that sort of thing if speedsters get more than one action.


I'd be VERY wary of it.

Darren
http://www.heroesandhenchmen.com
An M&M Resource Site

User avatar
nighthunter
Hero
Hero
Posts: 1692
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:39 pm
Location: Neon City, Australia
Contact:

Postby nighthunter » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:04 am

For my campaign I use the simple solution people with 8 or more ranks in super speed can take an extra action at their initiative count -20. Only delayed actions can be taken at negative initiative.

For example Hummingbird, the quickest girl on earth has Super Speed +8. She also has A dexterity of 15 (+2 bonus) so she has Initiative +10. Now if she rolls a 10 on her initiative roll then she's got an action at Initiative count 20 and initiative count 0. But if she rolls a 9 or less she gets only 1 action at initiative 19.
Now if she definitely feels she needs those extra actions she is always free to refocus in combat and thus gain an action at Init Count 30 and Init Count 10. Improved initiative would probably be very attractive to her and refocus could be an action which she's more likely to use since it guarantees those extra actions.

Now I'm sure that there are ways to abuse this, although I can't think of any off hand. But it makes the Speedster seem fast and it means she doesn't really get more time to shine than any other character.
"What a man does for pay is of little significance. What he is, as a sensitive instrument responsive to the world's beauty, is everything!" -H.P. Lovecraft

User avatar
Thom
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:40 pm

Postby Thom » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:53 am

We also allow extra actions by requiring the speedster to BUY THEM by spending power points between sessions (one at a time. . . Maximum number of possible actions = Super Speed level). . .
In game our speedster can disarm that group of thugs or rather five of them at present, at least until he buys more actions. . .
Thom™

"Rescue the Zoo Crew!"

User avatar
Strict31
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 7074
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: a huge, ever-growing, pulsating brain that rules from the centre of the ultraworld

Postby Strict31 » Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:53 pm

Thom wrote:We also allow extra actions by requiring the speedster to BUY THEM by spending power points between sessions (one at a time. . . Maximum number of possible actions = Super Speed level). . .
In game our speedster can disarm that group of thugs or rather five of them at present, at least until he buys more actions. . .


Pig-Iron!!! That was his name, wasn't it? Your avatar?


Strictly Speaking

User avatar
Thom
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:40 pm

Postby Thom » Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:44 pm

Yes indeed, that is Pig Iron as drawn by Scott Shaw! from Captain Carrot and his Amazing Zoo Crew. . .

Even though it has been 20 years since the Zoo Crew last saw print on a regular basis I keep hope that someday DC Comics will hear our few lonely voices and once again bring the Zoo Crew to print. . .
Thom™



"Rescue the Zoo Crew!"

User avatar
Strict31
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 7074
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:29 pm
Location: a huge, ever-growing, pulsating brain that rules from the centre of the ultraworld

Postby Strict31 » Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:04 pm

I loved the Zoo Crew when i was a kid. And their crossover with the JLA (Just'a Lotta Animals)...


Strictly Speaking

User avatar
mouthymerc
Partisan
Partisan
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:54 am
Location: The P.S.I.C.O. Agency

Postby mouthymerc » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:42 am

nighthunter wrote:For my campaign I use the simple solution people with 8 or more ranks in super speed can take an extra action at their initiative count -20. Only delayed actions can be taken at negative initiative.


Spycraft has a mechanic similar to this with their Fluid Initiative rules. Its called Pressing. How it works is that if the character's initiative total is 25 or higher, he can press for an additional half action in that round. The character can take the half action at his initiative count, but loses 20 from his initiative total. When he reaches his new initiative count he can take his regular round of actions. This makes Regroup a better resource for fast characters.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
--George Orwell


Return to “Mutants & Masterminds Rules (1e)”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest