Powers: Triggers & Trickle Down

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
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Postby Strict31 » Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:59 pm

mgg wrote:I think the answer to these is pretty obvious. The lack of trickle down effect refers to powers as extras of course, not ordinary extras, just like there are different rules for ordinary power stunts and power stunts that are secondary effects.


Perhaps you could provide an example of what you mean because I'm now confused. Are you saying that no-trickle-down applies to Effects purchased as Extras, but not to ordinary extras?


mgg wrote:Good question. Is damaging an additional power or not? It seems likely it is. :(


If by this you mean "additional Effect", I think the same could be said about the Additional Attributes Extra for Mimic.

At any rate, in response to Seehawk and Marshal Law, the statement on page 96 still exists, and has since the game was published. So even if Steve has said otherwise, or has changed something, the text provides the reason to assume (I suppose, now, incorrectly) the existence of universal trickle-down. It does not specifically differentiate between one type of Extra and another. It does not even hint that there is supposed to be a difference in application.

It is impossible to follow every discussion in which new specifics that did not previously exist are stated; the only way a thing that contradicts print can be followed adequately is through published or downloadable, and updated errata.

Seehawk wrote:Yeah, it was "experianced" and "adamant" posters that had me confused.
I could so no logical reason to think that extras trickled down, yet it was assumed in so many threads that I started to question my own sanity


Quite simply, the "logical reason" exists in print. It may be specified, or changed or contradicted by Steve, but it still exists. In lieu of Steve stating otherwise, there was no reason to assume the text was invalid, or limited in scope.

And I would add that in my case, at least, my response to Seehawk's initial question was an attempt to provide assistance. Not to gloat about a higher post count. So personally, I'd appreciate it if you did not infer insult or mockery by placing the above words in quotations.


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Postby hobgoblin » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:19 pm

gah, my head hurts trying to get to grips with all this...

i take it the primary question is if power stunts and extras can share their extras.

given the evidence presented i would say that steve is very close to if not allready contradicting himself. first of, a power stunt from what i gather out of the book should work at the same level as the original power but cost only 2 points as any feat do. but given the post that doc pointed out he is saying that the stunt should have a powerlevel equal to the cost of the original power with a max equal to max power level you can have. to me that is a contradiction and flawed logic as the char is just useing the same power in a diffrent way, he should not suddenly become more powerful, at any rate he should become less powerfull as its not what the power was originaly "designed" to do...

personaly i think that we would all be haveing a easyer time if the stuff about hooking up powers as stunts or extras was instead replaced by the use of triggerd extras and some special flaws or maybe a linked extra. sure this removes the scenario of haveing one power drain shutting down the hero/villans entire arsenal but that can be sold by a "follow links" extra for the drain power. the cost system most likely would have to be totaly rewritten tho...

or would could just declare that any extra or stunt could not themself have extras. allso that breaks some of the existing extras given in the book. man this realy is a mess...

og so 2 powerstunts of sustained or lower duration can not be used at the same time (and for that matter, power stunts can only be sustained or lower, right?). extras can be turned on or off more or less at will (free action at the chars turn). so if im using flight i would have to stop using it and flip it over to the powerstunt superflight in midflight (would happen as a half action) while if it was a extra i could change over with a free action at the same time?

man, i think the easyest would be to just trow powers as stunts way out into space and forget about it as the flat cost of powers is what is messing up the logic. everything else adds to the total cost but a powerstunt is a flat cost but if your then adding extras to that stunt what happens to the cost? this is a gamebalance minefield of epic proportions! the cost of powerstunts should be equal to buying a new power -1 as your adding a flaw that says you can only use it if the base power or any of its other stunts are not in use. and maybe at the same time declare that you have to buy any extras on the new power even tho the base power or any of the other powerstunts allready have that extra. hell maybe even toss in that to use a extra placed on a extra you will have to allso use the parent extra but then the child extra can be used to affect any and all of the parent extras (ie parent and grandparents) and the base power. if not then the child extra cant be accessed. but if the extra is placed on the base power then it can be accessed by all extras on down. did any of this make sense? if not then im not surprised as it just shows what a mess it is no matter how you spin it.

but i guess that the simplest fix is to say that stunts and extras cant themselfs have extras and then find a way to fix what is written about some of the powers that can take on other powers as extras in the book. it removes some flexibility but allso removes a lot of headache and book keeping...

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Postby farik » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:24 pm

hobgoblin wrote:gah, my head hurts trying to get to grips with all this...

i take it the primary question is if power stunts and extras can share their extras.

given the evidence presented i would say that steve is very close to if not allready contradicting himself. first of, a power stunt from what i gather out of the book should work at the same level as the original power but cost only 2 points as any feat do. but given the post that doc pointed out he is saying that the stunt should have a powerlevel equal to the cost of the original power with a max equal to max power level you can have. to me that is a contradiction and flawed logic as the char is just useing the same power in a diffrent way, he should not suddenly become more powerful, at any rate he should become less powerfull as its not what the power was originaly "designed" to do...

personaly i think that we would all be haveing a easyer time if the stuff about hooking up powers as stunts or extras was instead replaced by the use of triggerd extras and some special flaws or maybe a linked extra. sure this removes the scenario of haveing one power drain shutting down the hero/villans entire arsenal but that can be sold by a "follow links" extra for the drain power. the cost system most likely would have to be totaly rewritten tho...

or would could just declare that any extra or stunt could not themself have extras. allso that breaks some of the existing extras given in the book. man this realy is a mess...

og so 2 powerstunts of sustained or lower duration can not be used at the same time (and for that matter, power stunts can only be sustained or lower, right?). extras can be turned on or off more or less at will (free action at the chars turn). so if im using flight i would have to stop using it and flip it over to the powerstunt superflight in midflight (would happen as a half action) while if it was a extra i could change over with a free action at the same time?

man, i think the easyest would be to just trow powers as stunts way out into space and forget about it as the flat cost of powers is what is messing up the logic. everything else adds to the total cost but a powerstunt is a flat cost but if your then adding extras to that stunt what happens to the cost? this is a gamebalance minefield of epic proportions! the cost of powerstunts should be equal to buying a new power -1 as your adding a flaw that says you can only use it if the base power or any of its other stunts are not in use. and maybe at the same time declare that you have to buy any extras on the new power even tho the base power or any of the other powerstunts allready have that extra. hell maybe even toss in that to use a extra placed on a extra you will have to allso use the parent extra but then the child extra can be used to affect any and all of the parent extras (ie parent and grandparents) and the base power. if not then the child extra cant be accessed. but if the extra is placed on the base power then it can be accessed by all extras on down. did any of this make sense? if not then im not surprised as it just shows what a mess it is no matter how you spin it.

but i guess that the simplest fix is to say that stunts and extras cant themselfs have extras and then find a way to fix what is written about some of the powers that can take on other powers as extras in the book. it removes some flexibility but allso removes a lot of headache and book keeping...


You seem to be saying "it's okay to throw out the baby with the bathwater since the baby poops anyways."

The stunt system is one of MnM's biggest strengths even if there are occasional grey areas.
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Postby Marshal Law » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:54 pm

Strict31 wrote:
At any rate, in response to Seehawk and Marshal Law, the statement on page 96 still exists, and has since the game was published.

Strictly Speaking


To me, thats reads as if it aplies to extras, not Powers purchased as extras which are a whole different kettle of fish - effectively, they are powers with the falw "if power x is prevented, so is this one".

I'd say that the extras in any combination schtick means that yes, you can have area, autofire and mental as extras on your energy blasts, and can use any combination of these extras on an attack. But it does not give you those extras to use with any power you happen to buy as an extra of the first.

I don't think that is contradictory, I think it was simply ambiguous. Steve has now cleared up that ambiguity.
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Postby Dr. Nuncheon » Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:22 am

Valiantheart wrote:As far as those examples:
B) is worded incorrectly as it implies EB 5 + Mulltifire Costs 15 when it doesnt.


What?!

EB +5 (2 pp/ rank, 10 total)
Extra; Multifire (1 pp/rank, 5 total)

10+5 = 15 'round these parts, pardner.

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Postby Dr. Nuncheon » Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:28 am

I think that (like 'level' in D&D) 'Extra' is used for too many things - we probably need separate vocabulary for 'power modifier' as opposed to 'additional power'.

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Postby ZeroGlobal2003 » Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:41 am

My personal feeling is that when an power is added as an extra to an existing power, it's duration, range, and target all change to match the base power. This means that if an Energy Blast with the Area extra has Fatigue stacked on top of it, then fatigue has the area extra. If Super-Strength is flawed down to Sustained, and has the Protection extra added, then that Protection is sustained as well. Only if you want a different area for the "Extra'd" power do you need to buy anything for it.

Makes more sense that way to me. You've got your autofiring energy blasts, and when you add drain to them, you should keep autofiring, not have to buy it again.

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Postby Seehawk » Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:46 am

Strict31 wrote:At any rate, in response to Seehawk and Marshal Law, the statement on page 96 still exists, and has since the game was published. So even if Steve has said otherwise, or has changed something, the text provides the reason to assume (I suppose, now, incorrectly) the existence of universal trickle-down. It does not specifically differentiate between one type of Extra and another. It does not even hint that there is supposed to be a difference in application.


I believe you're taking that one statement from page 96 out of context which clouds its meaning a bit.

That statement is under the heading "Extras" and under the larger heading "CREATING POWERS". The first thing hit upon in this section is "Effects" and how many effects a power has. The inference (to me) is that when making a power from scratch, as opposed to using the ones in the book, you can have as many effects as you want with each effect being a seperate power. In other words, you won't really have "powers as extras" when creating a power from scratch, you'll just have multiple effects.

The above not-withstanding (because I do realize it's all opinion and inference on my part) the more supportive statement is in the paragraph just above the one you quote. The section is CLEARLY referring to "extras" not "powers as extras".
"Extras" section, 1st paragraph, 3rd sentence, begins on page 95:
"Each extra applied to a power increases its cost per rank by 1 power point."

It then goes on to point out that these 1pt extras can be applied multiple times, be used optionally and combined (as you point out). But all that followup stuff is contingent upon that "cost 1 per rank" bit.

The section then goes on to list a bunch of 'standard' 1pt extras such as Area, Autofire, etc, etc.

So forget about what Steve or anybody else said and just look at the statement you yourself quoted - but look at it in context. The section you're quoting applies to +1pt extras, not powers as extras or addtinal effects


Strict31 wrote:It is impossible to follow every discussion in which new specifics that did not previously exist are stated; the only way a thing that contradicts print can be followed adequately is through published or downloadable, and updated errata.

Quite simply, the "logical reason" exists in print. It may be specified, or changed or contradicted by Steve, but it still exists. In lieu of Steve stating otherwise, there was no reason to assume the text was invalid, or limited in scope.


You are entirely correct. The text you quoted isn't invalid, just incomplete. You quote one line from one paragraph while ignoring the paragraphs before and after it.



Jumping back to a previous post of yours...
Strict31 wrote: Say you've got a PL 10 Shapeshifter who wants, as his concept to be able to turn into any animal. And he doesn't want to shift back to normal shape when he's stunned. He takes Continuous to represent that. Then he takes Growth, maybe Mimic, and Shrinking (each of which are Sustained Durations, so you've now got to add the Continuous Extra three more times). Maybe you can get away with leaving movement effects, protection and Shrinking to Mimic, but it still becomes expensive...You're now looking at a character who has spent around 120-130 (and possibly more)pp of 150pp on powers when the average expenditure for a balanced character probably should be around 60-80pp. He is either forced to take partial ranks for some of his extras or to build a character who is underbalanced in everything else besides powers.


Couple responses here;
First, yes. The power you describe would be very expensive. 120pts for PL10. But the power you describe is also immensely powerful. Remember that Growth +10 brings with it Super-Strength +10 and Protection +10.

For that 120pts you're getting maximum level (for a starting character) in:
Shrinking, Growing, Super-Strength, Protection, Immovability, Mimickry and Shape-Shifting. AND everything except for the Mimic power is a free action and continues to work even if you're unconscious.

Does it cost twice as much as most starting character's powers would? Yes....because it does twice as much as most charactres powers do. Just because you WANT to make a character that does all of this stuff doesn't mean you can do it all when your character first starts out. The rules aren't (or shouldn't be) designed so that you can make a character that does everything you can imagine at maximum level the first day he walks out on the street to fight crime.

The fact that you can create an expensive power doesn't have anything to do with whether or not extas trickle down. Your implication seems to be "Extras trickle down because if they didn't it would be more expensive to make this character." Non Sequitor. That's tantamount to saying that because I can create a cheap power (like Armor) extras should be MORE expensive.

Strict31 wrote:And I would add that in my case, at least, my response to Seehawk's initial question was an attempt to provide assistance. Not to gloat about a higher post count. So personally, I'd appreciate it if you did not infer insult or mockery by placing the above words in quotations.


Methinks you might need to buy an "extra: Thicker Skin +10".
I didn't imply insult or mockery toward you and I can't control what you infer, but my use of quotes was in response to Marshal Law's post, not yours and I used quotation marks specifically to point out that those WEREN'T my words but were instead a previous posters (the point of quotation marks I believe). I was expressing agreement with Marshal Law's statement. If you're insulted by the fact that people disagree with you, that's not my problem.

Quite frankly I didn't know what the heck you were talking about with your "insult & mockery" comment until I went back and saw that you posted on this thread already. Bottom line: my comments weren't directed at you. I don't know you and didn't know you were even part of the thread. Any insult you infer was not purposefully implied by me.


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Postby Seehawk » Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:21 am

ZeroGlobal2003 wrote:My personal feeling is that when an power is added as an extra to an existing power, it's duration, range, and target all change to match the base power. This means that if an Energy Blast with the Area extra has Fatigue stacked on top of it, then fatigue has the area extra. If Super-Strength is flawed down to Sustained, and has the Protection extra added, then that Protection is sustained as well. Only if you want a different area for the "Extra'd" power do you need to buy anything for it.


Since I seem to be "conversating" with Strict31 on this subject and you agree with him I wanted to pop in with a reply to something you said...

I think it's pretty clear that your position is contrary to the "rules" of the game. The book doesn't support it and Steve doesn't support it. But that's all well-and-good because "rules" and "rpg" aren't necessarily a good match. You start out your post with "My personal feeling is....." and I say more power to you.

If your personal feeling about how your game should be run is that base attributes of a power change simply by making it an extra of another power then you're of course free to play your game however you wish. But, at least in a forum called "Rules" it's important to point out that you're using house rules which, btw, I fully support.

As to your example;
The EB + Fatigue combo priced your way is giving additional price breaks above and beyond the book to the player. The book says:
"In some cases a power may have another power as an extra.....In this case the extra increases the cost of the original power by the cost of the additional power, minus one" (page 56)

That's important; "the cost of the additional power minus one"

So you basically need to price up the additional power, using all the standard rules for extras & flaws and then subtract 1. If you price powers your way, you're giving a bigger discount than -1.

EB w/area costs 3
Fatigue w/area extra costs 3
If you want to make Fatigue an extra of EB you get to apply -1 to the cost making it 2. Total cost at PL10 would be 50pp. Priced your way it would be 40pp.

That may not seem like much with only one extra but take it a step further. Player wants two powers, Energy Blast and Fatigue.

EB +10 [Extras: Area, Autofire, Multifire, Range] cost 6, total 60pp
Fatigue +10 [Extras: Area, Autofire, Multifire, Range] cost 6, total 60pp

It would cost him 120pp to buy both of these powers. By the book though, he can make Fatigue an extra of EB and get the -1 discount. Total cost 110pp.

There is nothing anywhere in the book that indicates you can add Fatigue onto EB and get a -4 discount and save 40pp. It just doesn't exist.


Again, you're free to use whatever houserules you like but you should be aware that it means that characters created with these house rules could be very unbalanced in relation to characters created in other games or in published materials and that's why I usually try to stick by the book myself. I like to know that characters in my game are (theorectically) balanced against opponents and npcs in published materials. Makes my life that much easier :D

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Postby Valiantheart » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:37 am

ZeroGlobal2003 wrote:My personal feeling is that when an power is added as an extra to an existing power, it's duration, range, and target all change to match the base power. This means that if an Energy Blast with the Area extra has Fatigue stacked on top of it, then fatigue has the area extra. If Super-Strength is flawed down to Sustained, and has the Protection extra added, then that Protection is sustained as well. Only if you want a different area for the "Extra'd" power do you need to buy anything for it.

Makes more sense that way to me. You've got your autofiring energy blasts, and when you add drain to them, you should keep autofiring, not have to buy it again.

Zero


Actually extras arent applied as is on stunts. However, if you have an attack power (for instance) with an area extra, then any stunts you create off of it can be created for the same cost to purchase the power and the extra. I.E. fatigue +area or stun + autofire etc.
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Postby hobgoblin » Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:43 am

farik wrote:You seem to be saying "it's okay to throw out the baby with the bathwater since the baby poops anyways."

The stunt system is one of MnM's biggest strengths even if there are occasional grey areas.


well my biggest problem is that it is a flat cost given the number of effects it can have. sure if its a variation on the normal power then i can understand the flat cost but when one then trys to take a diffrent power like a variant of the existing power stuff gets funny. how about i pick up cosmic power as a veriant of energy control? i know thats pushing it but theoreticaly i just picked up a 8 points pr level power for 2 points! to me its an abomonation and the extra system for powers is not far behind, alltho it can be saved by adding some restrictions and/or clarifications on how extras behave if they are applyed to a power that acts like an extra.

it seems that secondary effect stunts should have its own class rather then being defined as a power stunt as they are to fexible to have a flat cost. in my view they should be buildt like a secondary power complete with its own extras and so on, at the time it get hooked up as a secondary power tho its cost should be halved and then added to the cost pr level of the primary power.

as for trickle down or not, my view is now that any extra used along with the power must allso apply to the powers that behave as extras and that any extras you buy to powers that are extras themself in fact become extras to the primary power. to use a extra you must allways use the primary power and therefor allways have access to extras applyed to it. remember that extras dont have to be used and therefor will not allways apply to your planed use of the power. maybe this can even explain extras applyed to powers that are power stunts as while they are available it would not make sense to use them with the primary power. ie the char do it in theory but rarely do as it makes no sense to him to do it that way. therefor all extras that you want to apply to extras or power stunts in fact become extras to the primary power and therefor become available to all extras and stunts. just rember that any extras used mut apply to all effects so if your useing area it will apply to all other extas your currently useing. and any power stunt secondary powers will allso be able to access area if it makes sense to use it on that power. even tho you can access it does not automaticly mean that you should use it...

yes i know this contradict my first part where i attack the power stunts but that is in fact a seperate issue for me.

example:

lets say i pick up telekinesis, then i apply the extras of force field and flight. then i grab the extras of deflection and affect others from force field and space flight from flight. my theory now is that i can by combineing these extras be able to rocket my self and others into deep space by use of telekinetic force, deflect attacks made against others without the need to erect a full force field of telekinetic force and so on as they are in fact all extras of the main power.

now lets say i pick up elemental control as a power stunt to my telekinesis (they are both classified as control under sorcery so i guess its ok ;) )?

while i have to shut down my main telekinesis power while useing it i i still have access to all my extras alltho now they are extras to my elemental control. i should still be able to erect a force field, alltho now powerd by say wind as a element (the fx description is that im able to control the flow of air useing my telekinetic powers and erect a barrier of solid air). and the same can be used for flight and maybe even space flight (alltho what element to use there im not totaly sure? grab a pocket of air and use that as a self renewing push maybe?). hmm, space flight via a blast of water or earth anyone?

heh, maybe my initial reaction to power stunts was flawed. sorry for that. in this context it makes more sense. alltho i wonder if the parts of the cosmic power is extras or stunts (phoinx (sp?) force anyone?)...

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Postby ZeroGlobal2003 » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:21 am

That may not seem like much with only one extra but take it a step further. Player wants two powers, Energy Blast and Fatigue.

EB +10 [Extras: Area, Autofire, Multifire, Range] cost 6, total 60pp
Fatigue +10 [Extras: Area, Autofire, Multifire, Range] cost 6, total 60pp

It would cost him 120pp to buy both of these powers. By the book though, he can make Fatigue an extra of EB and get the -1 discount. Total cost 110pp.


That may not seem like much with extra rules but take it a step further. Player wants two powers, Energy Blast and Fatigue.

EB +10 [Extras: Area, Autofire, Multifire, Range] cost 6, total 60pp
PS: Fatigue +10 [Extras: Area, Autofire, Multifire, Range] cost 2, total 2pp

It would cost him 120pp to buy both of these powers. By the book though, he can make Fatigue a PS of EB and get the 2 point flat rate discount. Total cost 62pp.



You see my point here? Now I know that Power Stunts are more limited then Extras in that they can't be used together, but really your still getting half the functionality at 1/25th of your projected cost. I really cant see why your arguing that the point cost is the issue. The real issue is abusing this "extras match base" idea.

What I mean is making sustained powers extras of permenent ones and thus the sustained becomes permanent. That is the only place I can see this really being an abusing factor.

My possition can be summed up in one concept: if I make a "grenade", weapon with the area extra, and then make it a "explosive and sickening grendade" by adding fatigue, I've already added the explosive effect of the power (the area extra), why should I have to pay for it again?

Ok, to make a comparison (book at home, this is completely based off of memory, so if I get it wrong I'll apologize or revise):

Energy Blast 2pp
Extra: Area 1pp
Extra: Fatigue 1pp
Extra: Area 1pp
Extra: Dazzle 1pp
Extra: Area 1 pp
Extra: Snare 1 pp
Extra: Area 1 pp
Total: 9 pp per rank.

"Explosive Stunning Tiring Trapping Blasts"
Base 1pp
Attack (Energy Blast) 1pp
Attack (Fatigue) 1 pp
Attack (Dazzle) 1pp
Attack (Snare) 1pp
Extra: Area 1 pp
Total: 6 pp per rank

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Postby Seehawk » Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:21 am

hobgoblin wrote:well my biggest problem is that it is a flat cost given the number of effects it can have. sure if its a variation on the normal power then i can understand the flat cost but when one then trys to take a diffrent power like a variant of the existing power stuff gets funny. how about i pick up cosmic power as a veriant of energy control? i know thats pushing it but theoreticaly i just picked up a 8 points pr level power for 2 points! to me its an abomonation and the extra system for powers is not far behind, alltho it can be saved by adding some restrictions and/or clarifications on how extras behave if they are applyed to a power that acts like an extra.


The power that you're "stunting" must cost LESS than the main power so you can't get the massive price break that you consider an abomination (as I would consider it too).

The TOTAL COST of the "stunted" power (which means base cost + extras - flaws x pl) must be lower then the main power.

I happen to agree with you that the power stunt system has some problems, but I think most of those problems are due to poor documentation and explaination within the rules rather than systemic flaws.

hobgoblin wrote:example:
lets say i pick up telekinesis, then i apply the extras of force field and flight. then i grab the extras of deflection and affect others from force field and space flight from flight. my theory now is that i can by combineing these extras be able to rocket my self and others into deep space by use of telekinetic force, deflect attacks made against others without the need to erect a full force field of telekinetic force and so on as they are in fact all extras of the main power.


You can fly and still use deflection as they both use half actions with flight using a move action so there's no problem there.

I'm confused on where the "affects others" extra is. Is that an extra of Force Field or Deflection? You seem to be saying that when you buy it once it works for both powers but technically that's not true.

When you say you can rocket yourself and others into space though it gets murky because I don't know if you're saying that because of the "affects others" extra or the fact that you can use telekinesis to pick them up.

Technically the "affects others" extra has no effect on your Flight power nor Deflection (assuming here it's an extra of Force Field). If you want your Force Field to "affect others" and you want your Flight to "affect others" you would have to buy the extra twice, once for each power.

When you buy a 1 pt extra it affects only 1 power.
You're free (as I said earlier) to houserule to your heart's content and say that when you buy an extra it affects every power you have, but that's not the way the system is actually written.

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Strict31
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Postby Strict31 » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:06 am

Seehawk wrote:
Strict31 wrote:At any rate, in response to Seehawk and Marshal Law, the statement on page 96 still exists, and has since the game was published. So even if Steve has said otherwise, or has changed something, the text provides the reason to assume (I suppose, now, incorrectly) the existence of universal trickle-down. It does not specifically differentiate between one type of Extra and another. It does not even hint that there is supposed to be a difference in application.


I believe you're taking that one statement from page 96 out of context which clouds its meaning a bit.

That statement is under the heading "Extras" and under the larger heading "CREATING POWERS". The first thing hit upon in this section is "Effects" and how many effects a power has. The inference (to me) is that when making a power from scratch, as opposed to using the ones in the book, you can have as many effects as you want with each effect being a seperate power. In other words, you won't really have "powers as extras" when creating a power from scratch, you'll just have multiple effects.

The above not-withstanding (because I do realize it's all opinion and inference on my part) the more supportive statement is in the paragraph just above the one you quote. The section is CLEARLY referring to "extras" not "powers as extras".
"Extras" section, 1st paragraph, 3rd sentence, begins on page 95:
"Each extra applied to a power increases its cost per rank by 1 power point."

It then goes on to point out that these 1pt extras can be applied multiple times, be used optionally and combined (as you point out). But all that followup stuff is contingent upon that "cost 1 per rank" bit.

The section then goes on to list a bunch of 'standard' 1pt extras such as Area, Autofire, etc, etc.

So forget about what Steve or anybody else said and just look at the statement you yourself quoted - but look at it in context. The section you're quoting applies to +1pt extras, not powers as extras or addtinal effects


In part, you are misquoting.

What it says is "Some extras can be applied to the same power multiple times." This section may specifically refer to general or ordinary extras. I don't dispute that. But it previously says on page 56, "In some cases a power may have another power as an Extra." The only difference stated or inferred is one of cost. Obviously, powers as extras have a cost based on their stated cost minus one. Which is also obviously because that "minus one" is assumed to be the base one pp cost that all powers have which is not applied more than once to a given power build. In other words, it groups them all together and gives no indication that one version of extra should be treated differently than another version outside of cost alone, which is consistent with what is later written about power cost and building. There is no text that states that powers-as-extras should be otherwise treated any differently than general extras.

And to return to the issue of pg 95-96, the next paragraph down from the one I quote says, "The Power Descriptions section of this chapter includes hundreds of suggested extras, most of which are specific to the power they modify. The below list includes extras appropriate for a wide variety of powers, which you may purchase with the approval of the GM." At no point does the text suggest infer or state that there is any other difference between these and any other type of extras aside from the fact that the listed ones are generic. There is no inference, suggestion or statement that generic extras should be treated differently. You can assume that, but there's nothing in the text to suggest it. Nothing.

Furthermore, the quoted text muddles things by referring back to a different section (power descriptions) in which both generic extras and powers-as-extras are broadly grouped side by side, wherein, again, the only stated difference is a potential difference in cost. I don't have a problem with there being a difference in cost, potential or otherwise, because that difference, and the reason for it, is clearly detailed and explained in the text. And is clarified in the available errata. I concede to Marshal Law that the text makes the difference between powers-as-extras (or Effects) and generic extras ambiguous instead of contradictory. But I used the term "contradictory" only to say that people here have seen Steve say something different than what is currently being said, and that I have no idea when he started saying something different. Presumably, it will be detailed in either the Annual or the 2nd printing. It helps to know there is a difference, but at no point in the available text or errata is a difference stated or detailed.

Regardless of what you may think, you have not pointed one out. You have tried to say that, because the section precedes a section about generic extras, that it doesn't apply to other types of extras, when the text of that preceding section does refer to both types. All you have done is point out further evidence of ambiguity.


Seehawk wrote:
Strict31 wrote:It is impossible to follow every discussion in which new specifics that did not previously exist are stated; the only way a thing that contradicts print can be followed adequately is through published or downloadable, and updated errata.

Quite simply, the "logical reason" exists in print. It may be specified, or changed or contradicted by Steve, but it still exists. In lieu of Steve stating otherwise, there was no reason to assume the text was invalid, or limited in scope.


You are entirely correct. The text you quoted isn't invalid, just incomplete. You quote one line from one paragraph while ignoring the paragraphs before and after it.


Given the light of what Steve has recently told you, I would agree the entire section is incomplete. But I cannot reference that which doesn't exist. As I've stated above, I haven't ignored the paragraphs before and after it. A single statement such as, "These generic extras must be applied each time to each effect they are meant to modify" would have removed any ambiguity. That statement doesn't exist. I'm ignoring nothing. Well, perhaps I am ignoring an uncertainty, but in the text, there's nothing to clear up that uncertainty. As such, I can't rely upon an uncertainty to determine rules by which to play.

In the face of that uncertainty, you can still rely back on the weight of the text which states that powers (or, if you prefer, "Effects" or "groups of Effects") can be bought as extras. It does not say, powers can be bought as extras, but extras apply to those powers individually. It further goes on to say that extras can be used in any combination. It doesn't say "except extras that apply to powers bought as extras."



Seehawk wrote:Jumping back to a previous post of yours...
Strict31 wrote: Say you've got a PL 10 Shapeshifter who wants, as his concept to be able to turn into any animal. And he doesn't want to shift back to normal shape when he's stunned. He takes Continuous to represent that. Then he takes Growth, maybe Mimic, and Shrinking (each of which are Sustained Durations, so you've now got to add the Continuous Extra three more times). Maybe you can get away with leaving movement effects, protection and Shrinking to Mimic, but it still becomes expensive...You're now looking at a character who has spent around 120-130 (and possibly more)pp of 150pp on powers when the average expenditure for a balanced character probably should be around 60-80pp. He is either forced to take partial ranks for some of his extras or to build a character who is underbalanced in everything else besides powers.


Couple responses here;
First, yes. The power you describe would be very expensive. 120pts for PL10. But the power you describe is also immensely powerful. Remember that Growth +10 brings with it Super-Strength +10 and Protection +10.

For that 120pts you're getting maximum level (for a starting character) in:
Shrinking, Growing, Super-Strength, Protection, Immovability, Mimickry and Shape-Shifting. AND everything except for the Mimic power is a free action and continues to work even if you're unconscious.

Does it cost twice as much as most starting character's powers would? Yes....because it does twice as much as most charactres powers do. Just because you WANT to make a character that does all of this stuff doesn't mean you can do it all when your character first starts out. The rules aren't (or shouldn't be) designed so that you can make a character that does everything you can imagine at maximum level the first day he walks out on the street to fight crime.




Seehawk wrote:The fact that you can create an expensive power doesn't have anything to do with whether or not extas trickle down. Your implication seems to be "Extras trickle down because if they didn't it would be more expensive to make this character." Non Sequitor. That's tantamount to saying that because I can create a cheap power (like Armor) extras should be MORE expensive.


And there's no reason in the text provided to think that such a power build is providing you with more than you are already entitled. If you buy growth as an extra, you're paying for every single effect the power contains. You're not getting something for nothing. Shapeshifting is an expensive power build if you buy it with the typical bells and whistles we see in comic book shapeshifters. There's no reason to think that you are not equitably paying for what you get. But now there is, considering you'd have to add Continuous to more Effects within in order to have it function the way we see it do in comics.

That's why I also provide the example of a character turning into an elephant without applying the continuous extra to both Shapeshift and growth. We never see shapeshifters get knocked out and turned into, say, a human sized elephant. Either they get knocked out and return to human shape, or they get knocked out and maintain their current shape. Unless you want your character to look like a rather silly unconscious elephant, you've got to pay a lot.

I use the example to pose the question "is that what the rules intend?" Not to say, "it's too expensive that way, and thus it is wrong." And to show the results, if the rules do intend it that way. It might be a fine edge to the question posed, but I'm sure everyone here can at least acknowledge it, even if they disagree that the cost seems prohibitive. It is a valid point of consideration.

I'd point out another power build which is now cast in doubt, done by Steve himself. Maestro, on Page 144 of the FC book. His baton is a device with a lot of effects and Area. To which effect does area apply? The base effect? Energy Blast? Mind Control? Who knows? If it is now true that generic extra must be individually applied to each effect it modifies, that's fine. But which effect is it modifying? Do we determine it by the order in which it appears? Of course, it doesn't help that the power build is written in alphabetical order...What about Argo? another alphabetically ordered build. Does Continuous apply to Ability Scores? To All Attributes? Impossible to say, because it is obviously (as we now understand it from the cost) not meant to apply to all of them, but only one. So, which one? You can disregard these issues. Or disagree with the conclusions I reach. But they are worth discussing in the light of new information.

Seehawk wrote:
Strict31 wrote:And I would add that in my case, at least, my response to Seehawk's initial question was an attempt to provide assistance. Not to gloat about a higher post count. So personally, I'd appreciate it if you did not infer insult or mockery by placing the above words in quotations.


Methinks you might need to buy an "extra: Thicker Skin +10".
I didn't imply insult or mockery toward you and I can't control what you infer, but my use of quotes was in response to Marshal Law's post, not yours and I used quotation marks specifically to point out that those WEREN'T my words but were instead a previous posters (the point of quotation marks I believe). I was expressing agreement with Marshal Law's statement. If you're insulted by the fact that people disagree with you, that's not my problem.

Quite frankly I didn't know what the heck you were talking about with your "insult & mockery" comment until I went back and saw that you posted on this thread already. Bottom line: my comments weren't directed at you. I don't know you and didn't know you were even part of the thread. Any insult you infer was not purposefully implied by me.


Eric
The Seehawk


Fine. But methinks you need to appreciate that everyone who responded to your initial inquiry was trying to provide assistance in good conscience, since we've all asked for assistance and clarification before. I know I have. Any of us could have easily said, "Do a search. This is an old question." In point of fact, this triggered issue arose again a few weeks or maybe a month or so back. That would have been easier to say, and on many boards, people do say exactly that. Not here. Instead, you got feedback.

In retrospect, perhaps I was projecting something upon your words. You say you meant no insult. Okay. It doesn't seem worth arguing what you may or may not have intended, or what I perceived from the manner in which you said it.


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Postby Seehawk » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:23 pm

Rather then reply point-by-point to some of the things said in the last couple of posts (which I know comes off as arguementative) I wanted to put forth a new idea/clarification that addresses things.

First and foremost; I (rarely) take offense at things said on message boards and never (rarely :D ) mean to offend. I happen to LIKE discussions like these because I find that talking about rules helps me to understand them....even if I thought I already understood them before the conversation started.

Secondly; I think much (all?) of the confusion about power creation is due to how poorly this particular section is written in the book. Most of the questions I ask, and have seen asked, are simple yes/no questions that the rules should have addressed, but don't.

Okay, the biggy that I see causing even more confusion is how some posters combine "powers as extras" and "multiple effects" into one 'system of thougt' while -as I read it- they are two very different things. This was the 2nd "flash of enlightenment" I've had on this thread so allow me to try and explain what I'm talking about....

"Powers as extras" is merely a mechanism for a price break. It's a way for a player to buy "an extra power" at a discount. "Powers as Extras" are not (IMHO) designed to create "multi-powers", or single powers with multiple effects. "Powers as extras" represents two seperate and distinct powers that share a common source (thus they can be countered with a single drain or neutralize).

The pro-"extras trickle down" crowd is wrong :)
Sorry to be so blunt, but bare with me. Steve, who wrote the rules, confirms that extras don't trickle down so any arguement contrary to that is moot at this point. NOT trying to be insulting! But whether or not an individual chooses to accept Steve's word really can't be my concern here. He's the designer, he has his own board labeled "official" and he's made a ruling so I'm just going to move ahead and accept it as official and move on.

BUT the pro-"extras trickle down" crowd are also RIGHT in some ways.
Their terminology is off and, no matter how many times they say it, extras DON'T trickle down. BUT if you use the "Creating Powers" rules and use Multiple Effects rather than "Powers as Extras" to create "multi-powers" they get exactly what they want AND we can get away from that stupid (IMHO!) Triggered/Limited set up...

Ok...let's see if I can back that up with an example.....
Let's go back to my favorite sample attack power "Heat Blast" and let's say I want this blast of hot air to damage (energy blast) stun and fatigue all targets in a 50' radius area.

The way I (and most players) would go about this is with the "powers as extras" system. I'll do it that way too, first using the rules as I read them (and as Steve has confirmed them) right out of the book.

Energy Blast + Area = 3pp
Stun + Area + Triggered by EB - Limited only with EB - extra = 2pp
Fatigue + Area + Triggered by EB - Lmited only with EB - extra = 2pp
Total cost is 7pp/rank

Next, I'll assume "trickle down" of extras.
Energy Blast + Stun + Fatigue + Area + Triggered - Limited= 5pp/rank

The problem with BOTH of the above is that we're using "powers as extras" and then having to Trigger them together and Limit them. Instead go to page 92 and create the power from scratch.

Our power will have 3 effects (EB, Stun & Fatigue) so it costs 1 + 3 (for 3 effects) for a total of 4. Add the Area extra for +1 and it costs 5pp/rank. It's a SINGLE POWER with THREE EFFECTS. The extra doesn't have to "trickle down" to other extras because there ARE no other extras. This is the same cost the "trickle down" crowd arrives at with no trickle down...and no Triggered/Limited baggage either.


To illustrate another way, look at pre-existing multipowers like Growth. Growth is NOT a single power with "powers as extras" tacked on. It's a single unified power with several effects (Immovability, Protection, Super-Strength). Thus if you buy an extra like Continuous it applies to all of these effects not because they're extras of the main power, but because they AREN'T. If they were extras then continuous wouldn't trickle down to them...you'd have to buy it for each seperate extra.

And to try and combine both camps.....
Let's say your Growth power comes from your exposure to radiation. In addition to Growth the radiation also gave you the ability to create a force field. If you like you could make it an extra of Growth and save some points but it would not automatically get the Continuous extra that you bought for Growth. Growth & Force Field are two seperate and distinct powers. FF does not get to use the extras you bought for Growth and Growth does not get to use any extras you bought for FF. If you want your FF to be continuous (like Growth) then you have to buy the extra for it.

So the bottom line (as I see it) is that you can create "multi-powers" without having to buy they same extra over and over if instead of buying the additional powers as extras you instead create your own power with multiple effects.

Whew!

Did that make any sense?
Eric
The Seehawk


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