Size bigger than Medium

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Play di Gemini
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Size bigger than Medium

Postby Play di Gemini » Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:56 am

I have some doubt about size bigger than medium
For example, if a PC is a Large Size, he have -1 to defense, but have also -1 to attack?
if it's true, so what are the benefits of being a size bigger than Medium?
The PC dont acquire more reach? I cant find in the book nothing about it.

Thanks

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Marshal Law
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Postby Marshal Law » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:16 am

You should check the Errata, under the Gimmicks gadgets section:

http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/files/errata.pdf

You gain a bonus to reach and to speed. You also gain a bonus on grappling attacks - its easier for a big guy to hold a little guy.

***

There are other, non mechanical advantages, like being able to see over tall walls or reach up high.

***

Of course, if you take the standard version of the growth power, you also get the benefits of super-strength, protection and immovability as well.
Last edited by Marshal Law on Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
HAWK-Girl: Init +9; Melee: +8/+8; Def: +8 (Ff +2); Saves T/F/R/W +8/+5/+5/+5

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Postby DrObvious » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:18 am

They get a huge bonus to Grappling if they are larger size than their opponenet. That combined with the built in Super Strenght makes them very effective grappleres.

Personally, I don't really like size mods for a comic book game, and have not problem throwing them out.
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Postby Play di Gemini » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:36 am

I read the errata but the bonus of movement speed and reach is under the Growth Power.
I'm talking about a PC normally bigger than medium size (like a Giant Robot for example) not a PC that have Growth power.
So these bonus are applying too?

And they get a malus of -* to attacking rolls too or only malus to defense?

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Postby Marshal Law » Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:53 am

Yes, characters of different sizes are, basically, characters with Growth (or shrinking) and the "Permanent" flaw, and should be treated the same way.

*****

On a related topic, I'm considering swapping the Protection that growth gives you for "Amazing Save: Damage and Fortitude"

On the grounds that being bigger doesn't make you bulletproof, but the physical increase in mass should make it easier to resists both damage and effects like poison etc.
HAWK-Girl: Init +9; Melee: +8/+8; Def: +8 (Ff +2); Saves T/F/R/W +8/+5/+5/+5

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Postby Play di Gemini » Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:53 am

Ok thanks..so rest only the question

A PC of Large Size have -1 to defense. He has -1 to attack roll too?

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Postby Old Sparky » Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:13 am

Yes, but when fighting another opponent of equal size, that opponent has the same penalties, thus the two Large characters have the same overall bonus they would if they were both Medium-sized. Their penalities cancel each other out. Same goes for little guys against little guys!

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Postby TerraFan » Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:21 am

Just remember that the Permanant Flaw can only be applied to a continuous power, so you'll need an extra to make it continuous and then flaw it down to permanant.

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Growth major confusion...

Postby XEI » Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:58 pm

I just spend about 4 hours during tonight’s gaming session debating Growth and Shrinking (and other things including a complete abuse of Sorcery, but that's for another discussion).

One thing we all sat and discussed was how Growth on certain M&M characters had Permanent applied as an extra, which takes two extras to do. First of all, it WAS my opinion, at first, that ANY size at Permanent should be listed as a Flaw. But to get it as a Flaw, the question became: Do you take Extra: Continuous; Flaw: Permanent, or do you just take Flaw: Permanent. One would still make Growth = 6, the other would make Growth = 5. This is apposed to an innately Large creature paying 8pp/level for Permanent Growth.

After tonight we deconstructed the power to test it for mechanics balance. I can not for the life of me make this power balance mechanically for what it is worth. And it mostly comes down to the negative modifiers larger creatures get to Attack/Defense. Here's how I look at it:

For every -1 you get in BOTH Attack and Defense, that's essentially 5 power points worth of character points that get stripped from you character. Now, to be Large that's a 4 Power Level which means 20pp, gone. According to the Errata, you get +10 base movement. So, that's cool, that would be like an innate Running at PL2 which would cost 4pp. Hum, still not 20 though right... Okay, you also get 5 foot reach extra, according to Crooks! that's a like taking the Feat Extended Reach (or whatever) for 2pp. So that takes us to 6pp... where are the 14pp distributed?

Grapple checks +4, okay kinda cool, sure, let's say that's a Super Skill of sorts, plus take into account that it's good for Trip attacks (I think), but really Immovability is much better for 1pp/level, so let's say for 1pp/level bonus, so 4pp... takes us to 10pp. But wait, they get -4 to Hide, hum... that kind of balances that out...

Oh, you can lift people to higher ledges, step over obstacles more easily, see over tall walls... cool mechanics stuff, sure... but how about NOT sitting in normal vehicles, NOT entering normal doorways, NOT sitting on normal sized chairs... the list goes on, right?

Here's the kicker from today... being larger opens up more "squares" around you which means MORE people can attack you and get the benefits of flank. Now I'm utterly confused with Growth...

I'm on here HOPING others are talking about htis and have found a solution. Working on the Animal Handbook I feel like I figured out a certain portion of mechanically balancing animals in the M&M system. But I can not ignore the Growth and Shrinking phenomenon any longer and this has been the mechanic that has thrown off the completion of this book over, and over again because I keep changing what I believe is the most balanced mechanic.

A couple friends and I spend these last 4 hours discussing a way to deconstruct, and rebuild "Innate Size" so that it matches up with the M&M mechanics. What we got so far might end up being a whole new rule set built around making Growth and Shrink integrate more properly in to the system. My fear is that people out there do not want "more" rules added to the M&M system, as "d20 Done Right" is suppose to symbolize "d20 done simple and quick paced", and I totally agree and back that up. But there are a couple mechanics that just baffle me on a system that is suppose to be "done right" because I want to see the mechanics match up the way they promote. What I get instead are references in all the core books deal with the same issues inconsistently, almost at whim of what the writer feels the "right" way is.

So my ultimate question is: would there be an interest in game mechanics for topics like these to be redone mechanically, using the M&M rule set, to make it more "balanced" with the overall mechanics. Or do people even care?
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Postby Marshal Law » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:31 am

I don't follow your math at all. Where does "Being large strips 20pps worth of BAB and Defence" come from?

The -1 to BAB and DV are per *SIZE INCREASE* not per Power Level of Growth.

Therefore a large character has "lost" 5 points, not 20 points. 5 points. As you so rightly observe, he effectively gains 4 points worth of running and 2 points worth of reach.

That's a net gain of 1 point per level of increase, not a loss of 14.

*****

Or am I missing something obvious?
HAWK-Girl: Init +9; Melee: +8/+8; Def: +8 (Ff +2); Saves T/F/R/W +8/+5/+5/+5

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...

Postby XEI » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:02 am

Riiiiiiight.... I hate when things make sense and then they are argued about so much that others actually unravel WHY things made sense before but all of a sudden begin to not make any sense at all. In a simple answer you have set me back on course again...

Thank you Marshal Law... curse be those who make Rules Done Right feel like Rules Done Not So Right. I will never doubt GR again, not even against 4 determined players to set me astray. Well, not without more of a fight...

Any comments on why certain NPC write ups don't take size into consideration while others make the Growth Permenant as an Extra, etc?
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Ah ha!

Postby XEI » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:24 am

Okay, just before I get to bed... Here's why the discussion made me confused... it just kit me.

If you are a PL20 Villain and you have Growth 20... this is where things get weird. That means you lose 80pp off your character (-16 to Defense and Attack) and get back 30pp from the equivalent of Running +10 and Extended Reach x5. In this example you are still missing 50pp.
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Postby Marshal Law » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:24 am

Your extended reach is a lot more than +5, though as you are 16 squares across. From your center-point, you can attack anybody within a radius of 65 feet.

That's a huge area, and when coupled with feats like Takedown, Rapid Takedown or whirlwind attack, means you can lay waste to small armies in a single round.

The giant bonuses to Grapple and Trip don't hurt, either.

Being able to reach over 150 feet upwards is also hugely useful. As is being able to casually step from the top of one tall building to another (assuming they can hold your incredible weight). You can stride straight though a crowd of people who block the way of ordinary sized characters.

Basically, there are some enourmous advantages to being really, really, big.

If the penalties to hit are causing you difficulty vs the tiny heroes, push a building over onto them. Heck, at colossal size, your fists probably count as area attacks anyway. Pretty easy for a GM to make that call, should he wish to do so.

*****


The ultimate answer must be, however, - if it is causing a problem in your games, tweak it. If it isn't, who cares?

Deciding that the whole thing needs re-writing before you have even managed to play a game is simply counterproductive, and gets in the way of the fun.
HAWK-Girl: Init +9; Melee: +8/+8; Def: +8 (Ff +2); Saves T/F/R/W +8/+5/+5/+5

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and...

Postby XEI » Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:50 am

And my man...

Discussion over as far as I'm concerned. :) (with my buddies, feel free to continue discussing here of course...) I just needed someone like you to take a strong side for why everything was great the way it was.

I'll just have to make the heroes go up a giant and then let them argue that it was to easy to take down because it was "missing" 50 points.

Thanks again!
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Postby Marshal Law » Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:57 am

Hey, I'm not blindly saying its great. Maybe at the top end, Growth does need tweaking.

But I wouldn't worry about it until you actually see a Growth based PC clearly falling behind the powers of the other PCs.

Which probably won't happen unless somebody specifically sets out to do everything the Growth character can do.

****

And if it is a villain, why worry, anyway? If you feel like it, and think it necessary, you can always give the villain extra PP anyway. Because of teh way powers interact, there is no flat formulae that says a villain of given PL is a suitbale challenge for the heroes, so that fact that you feel the need to hit them with a PL 23 creation instead of a PL 20 one would be irrelevant.
HAWK-Girl: Init +9; Melee: +8/+8; Def: +8 (Ff +2); Saves T/F/R/W +8/+5/+5/+5


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