Sorcery: every extra spell costs the same as a power stunt?

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Belmonte
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Postby Belmonte » Mon May 10, 2004 9:25 pm

Yeah, normal stunt rules. They just didn't go into detail in the book, past a certain point. I'm hoping the Annual does much more in-depth rules.

A stunt 'respends' the points of the effect it's from. Each sorcery power is worth 20PP.

A 3PP/Rank power is 20/3 = 6 Ranks. 2/3, round down. Pretty simple. You see this in a few powers in Crooks and in Freedom City.
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Postby The Shadow » Mon May 10, 2004 9:26 pm

I fail to see what is clumsy or excessively powerful about Sorcery. It is neither more nor less than any other power suite with a flaw on it.

I find power stunts to be both logical and elegant. The idea is that having more than one of a single type of effect runs up against diminishing returns.

As for the 2/3 fix, I don't see what's so kludgy about it - it's just keeping the point cost the same as the other slots in the power.
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Postby farik » Mon May 10, 2004 10:15 pm

drbino wrote:Thanks. :) Sounds like duct tape, however: a clumsy fix. Are there examples of situations where other powers have to work at some fraction of their potential effectiveness?


Gadgets for instance. When you apply an extra like area or something else to a generated power you reduce the power rank of the gadget power.
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Postby Sacremas » Tue May 11, 2004 3:46 am

drbino wrote:That goes for any character in any campaign. The DM can beat your ass no matter what kind of character you put together. If you're designing a character to be GM-proof, you're in it for the wrong reason. I've never used that as a reason why or why not to make a certain character. In a good GM/Player relationship, the GM is there to facilitate the story and to make the game fun, not just to school you every other game so you remain humble. No GM I play under would do that. Not twice, anyway. ;)


True, but unless they stacked all their powers into one (rendering it much like Sorcery rules-wise actually), they likely got more of them. Take away the original's flight and he'll likely still be strong and invunerable, and the other way around. Most players tend build up with several diffrent powers, meaning that when a evil GM comes along he'll only be able of taking away some of it likely, though the two facts may not always be directly related... you as a sorceror dont got that option, you most likely got all your eggs in the same basket from the start, with little else to go on. When a magic stopping thingamag comes along, or you wont be able to use magic due to any reason or someone ties you up, you're out. That's the diffrence.

And actually IMO with powers like that its the GM's job to sometimes mess up for you and 'humble' you in the course of a session or maybe just over a single battle a few times during the campaign.
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Postby tesuji » Tue May 11, 2004 11:58 am

drbino wrote:So if I take my PL 10 sorceror and allocate an extra 20 of my 150 points for 10 extra spells, added to the 7 spells as default, my character will have 17 different powers all at power level 10. Egggggcellent! ;)


yes, yopu will have 17 different powers but can only use one of each type at a time.

thats exactly like someone else having a lot of power stunts under their own extraed powers...

Like say...
electric force field+10 (offensive) 2pp
extra shockbolt EB+1pp
extra flight +1 pp
extra desolid +1 pp
extra absorb energy +2 pp
stunt: dazzle
stunt: stun
stunt paralyze

sorcery is built and adds stunts (extra spells) just like every other power.

if you think its some special deal or cool cost break, you just need to look around a little.

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Postby Superfreak » Tue May 11, 2004 1:45 pm

As others point out, Sorcery is just built using the basic power rules -- it has seven effects, plus one for base power cost, minus one for limited flaw. Once you buy one effect, you can purchase secondary effects off of it as a power stunt for only 2 pp. (Example, I buy Energy Blast +10, I can buy snare, stun, dazzle, etc. each as a power stunt for 2 pp). As others have pointed out, the Annual/errata will likely clarify that when your secondary effect bought as a stunt has a higher base cost then the root effect it is bought from, the stunted secondary effect decreases in power (see Captain Thunder's Dazzle attack in the core M&M Rulebook).

Also, bear in mind that with the GM's permission, ANY power can be temporarily bought for the cost of extra effort/hero point (can't remember which/the exact mechanic off hand). If you don't use your power stunted secondary effects all that often, it can be "cheaper" to dump them and just burn a hero point when you want to spontaneously acquire a power.
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Postby rstehwien » Wed May 12, 2004 4:55 am

Superfreak wrote:As others point out, Sorcery is just built using the basic power rules -- it has seven effects, plus one for base power cost, minus one for limited flaw. Once you buy one effect, you can purchase secondary effects off of it as a power stunt for only 2 pp.

Sorcery is all very "legal" once you take care of the cost 3 powers (like mental blast and Healing). I house ruled that you must take a flaw on those powers.
Always remember that when you use power stunts to gain powers of the same effect, you can't use them at the same time. This is fine for the offensive powers, but can be a bother for the defensive, control, divination, illusion, and transformation powers - no Force Field and Immovability at the same time.
Superfreak wrote:Also, bear in mind that with the GM's permission, ANY power can be temporarily bought for the cost of extra effort/hero point (can't remember which/the exact mechanic off hand). If you don't use your power stunted secondary effects all that often, it can be "cheaper" to dump them and just burn a hero point when you want to spontaneously acquire a power.

Extra effort pg 105 is where you can add extras/power stunts.

I've also found that taking the power as a stunt allows you to later do extra effort to expand the base power. I've had two different sorcerors take Dimensional Travel just so they can do extra effort to take along the group.

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Postby Frank3d6 » Wed May 12, 2004 8:10 am

I have a house rule that you can use two or more Sustained or Continuous powers from the same magical area (say Force Field and Immunity from Defense), but the sorceror has to split his ranks among the active powers. For instance Dr. Arcane has Sorcery at Rank 10. He could have a Force Field at rank 8 and 2 Immunities. Or any other combination of powers from the same area that add up to 10.

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Magical Staff

Postby XEI » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:52 am

Okay, I got a question to bring this thread back to life. I was gaming tonight (FIANLLY... or at least attempting to) and I created a magical staff of power. On this staff I loaded 8 Powers that I got down to 2p/level each, plus I added 8 Super Feats / Feats.

Mechanically this would equal 88pp for this staff. Eight powers at 2pp/level with a Device Flaw takes them to 1pp/level + 8 Super Feats / Feats with a Flaw: Device, taking them for a total of 8pp.

I thought it was a pretty good staff. Then a player of mine, who just made up a wizard character using sorcery with something like 17 EXTRA spells as Power Stunts heard how much the staff cost and said that was too much. Him being a rules lawyer to the core remade the staff costing a total of 32 points using the Sorcery power, Flawed it up by taking away "schools" not used, no Spontaneous Casting, etc until Sorcery was costing 1pp/level, then Power Stunted extra Powers off the one set being used, finally adding the Flawed Feats.

His staff ended up MORE powerful than mind because he had all the original Sorcery spells untouched on the staff... remember I was flawing my Powers to equal two sometimes.

Now, with both having Source: Magic, both being a device, and both being ineffective if the user is Snared, etc... how exactly can I argue the fact that his is wrong and mine is write... or vise versa for that matter? Any suggestions?
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Postby Marshal Law » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:48 am

Some of your powers might be continuos, all of his are sustained at the most.

You took each of your powers as extras. That means they work at the same time.

He took several of them as powerstunts. If he uses the powerstunt, he can't use the power it is stunted off at the same time.

You took each power at PL10. Some of his powers, based on the FAQ, may well have been dropped to 2/3 power - or even less, since if you powerstunt of a power that only costs one point per level, as his sorvery power did, you are limited to only spending that many points on the stunt power.

Unless every power in the staff was one that you wanted to be able to use in the same round as all the others, you could have saved yourself a LOT of points by using power stunts

Some of the "flaws" he has taken might not, under the scrutiny of a GM, qualify as flaws.

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But those are all guesses. Unless you post the exact build of both staffs, there will be limited value in our comments.
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Clarity Some What

Postby XEI » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:09 am

First of all, I'd like to say, the 2/3 thing just started coming up tonight in my searches, so that in itself helps. On top of that the whole pp limit of the Power Stunt based on the spell being Power Stunted... also just came up tonight.

These two things alone are enough for a reworking of his staff. I will try to get both copies of the staffs up by tomorrow as it is 5am here and soon I'll be seeing the sun rise :). But essentially, the staff did not have many, if any, powers that where to be used in the same round.

And just to clarify on this, wouth that mean if a character had 2 travel powers, let's say Teleport and Flying, he could fly his movement for a half action towards a wall, then teleport the rest of the distance, ignoring the wall, for the next half action. While, on the other hand, a sorcerer would only be allowed to fly to the wall but then wait until next round to teleport past it?

This simple difference would be all the confirmation needed to answer many of the questions that came up tonight.

Thanks!
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Postby TerraFan » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:28 pm

drbino wrote:Thanks. :) Sounds like duct tape, however: a clumsy fix. Are there examples of situations where other powers have to work at some fraction of their potential effectiveness?


No, there aren't because no other powers were built "incorrectly" like sorcery. That is a fix to make sorcery inline with the way the actual power construction rules work. It's not a handicap. The way it was before you were getting something for nothing, now you're getting what you're paying for.

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Magic Staff Comparison

Postby XEI » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:04 pm

Here are the two examples I was talking about. I took the liberty to actually rework my buddies Sorcery version to ACTUALLY match mine as close as possible. I think it is clear why mine is more expensive. If anyone can see any other reasons why using the second version is WORSE, by all means let me know. I think I've already gotten enough reason, but more would make my smile larger.

USING MULTIPLE POWERS

Powers: (8pp/level)
Flight [Flaws: Device; Cost: 1pp]
Animated [Extras: Horde; Flaws; Dead bodies only; Device; Cost: 1pp]
Shapeshift [Flaws: Device; Cost: 1pp]
Mind Control [Extras: Mind Blank; Flaws: 8/day, Device; Cost: 1pp]
Strike [Flaws: Device; Cost: 1pp]
Blending [Extras: Super-Skill (Move Silently); Flaws: Device; Cost: 1pp]
Teleport [Extras: Extended Teleport; Flaws: 4/day, Device; Cost: 1pp]
Stun [Cost: 1pp]

Feats: (8pp)
[All Flawed: Device; Cost: -1pp]
Darkvision
All Around Sight
Immunity (Cold)
Immunity (Fire)
Immunity (Poison)
Detect (Source)
Mystic Awareness
Attack Focus (Strike)

= At PL10, 88pp

USING SORCERY:

Powers:
Sorcery [Flaws: Excluded Group (Defensive, Divination, Illusion), Rote, Device; Power Stunts: Two 3 Spells; Cost: 2pp+6pp]
- Mind Control [Extras: Mind Blank; Flaws: 8/day]
- Flight [PS: Teleportation (Extras: Extended Teleport; Flaws: 4/day)]
- Stun [PS: Strike]
- Animation [Extras: Horde; Flaws; Dead bodies only; PS: Shapeshift]
Blending [Extras: Super-Skill (Move Silently); Flaws: Device; Cost: 1pp]

Feats: (8pp)
[All Flawed: Device; Cost: -1pp]
Darkvision
All Around Sight
Immunity (Cold)
Immunity (Fire)
Immunity (Poison)
Detect (Source)
Mystic Awareness
Attack Focus (Strike)

At PL10, 44

HINDERANCES OF SORCERY:

- You could not cast and then sustain Animation and then cast Shapeshift and sustain it the same round or until the Animation power shuts off.
- You could not cast and then sustain Flight and then cast Teleport until the Flight power shuts off.
- You can not use Stun and take advantage of the Strike power while sustaining Stun
- All Sorcery powers can be drained with the Drain power
- All Sorcery powers become useless in environments that disallow speech or cause the caster to be Snared, tangled or grappled
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Re: Clarity Some What

Postby TerraFan » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:19 pm

XEI wrote:And just to clarify on this, wouth that mean if a character had 2 travel powers, let's say Teleport and Flying, he could fly his movement for a half action towards a wall, then teleport the rest of the distance, ignoring the wall, for the next half action. While, on the other hand, a sorcerer would only be allowed to fly to the wall but then wait until next round to teleport past it?

This simple difference would be all the confirmation needed to answer many of the questions that came up tonight.

Thanks!


It all depends on how they were purchased. If they are separate powers, completely, then yes, you can use both in the same round.

If you have one bought as an extra of the other (if the GM allowed it), yes, you can use them both in the same round.

If one was purchased as a power stunt off of the other, then NO a secondary effect (the stunt) cannot be used in the same round as the main effect.

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Re: Magic Staff Comparison

Postby TerraFan » Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:26 pm

XEI wrote:HINDERANCES OF SORCERY:

- You could not cast and then sustain Animation and then cast Shapeshift and sustain it the same round or until the Animation power shuts off.
- You could not cast and then sustain Flight and then cast Teleport until the Flight power shuts off.
- You can not use Stun and take advantage of the Strike power while sustaining Stun
- All Sorcery powers can be drained with the Drain power
- All Sorcery powers become useless in environments that disallow speech or cause the caster to be Snared, tangled or grappled


As you've written them up there another disadvantage. As devices, they can be targed and destroyed. In your first example, by buying the device flaw for each one, it implied that they are all separate devices. They would have to be disarmed or destroyed one by one. In the second example, only one disarm or attempt to destroy it would be sufficient.

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