Sorcery: every extra spell costs the same as a power stunt?

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drbino
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Sorcery: every extra spell costs the same as a power stunt?

Postby drbino » Sun May 09, 2004 8:40 pm

If I'm reading this right, for Sorcery, you get one spell from each school. Now, for a mere two more points, you get an extra spell. I can only assume that this spell is cast at the power rank of the primary Sorcery power. That is not logical, because an extra spell cast by a power rank 2 sorceror would have much less effect than that same spell cast by a power rank 20 sorceror, yet they would cost each character a constant 2 points.

I was disappointed to not find this in the errata. I was sure this was a typo and they really meant that each additional spell was an EXTRA, rather than a stunt.

Can anyone clarify?

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Postby farik » Sun May 09, 2004 8:58 pm

The nature of stunts (2 pt modification to the power) is to vary the effect of the power while the general mechanic stays constant. Sorcery granting a full rank spell is mechanically the same as spending 2 pt to get a dazzle attack at the same rank as the energy blast it's based on since both dazzle and energy blast are attack effects. I'd reccommend looking over the sections of the book that explains effects in detail.
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Postby Shalimar » Sun May 09, 2004 9:08 pm

Look at the way powers are designed. Sorcery has 7 effects, 1 for each category of spells. Now look at the rules for Secondary Effects. When you chose to take more then one power with the same effect, like Flight and Running, or Snare and Energy blast there is a diminishing return. To reflect that diminishing return they have chosen to make additional powers of the same type cost 2pps in effect, becoming power stunts. The drawback is that you cannot use both of the seperate attack effects at once, so it is a trade off.

Look at Time Control, it includes the Slow power, and for that reason a person may buy paralysis as a powerstunt as its a second attack effect.

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Postby Sacremas » Sun May 09, 2004 11:36 pm

That is not logical, because an extra spell cast by a power rank 2 sorceror would have much less effect than that same spell cast by a power rank 20 sorceror, yet they would cost each character a constant 2 points.


A PL 2 Sorcerer getting a new spell casts that spell at +2. A PL 20 sorcerer cast that spell at +20. They paid the same cost for the specific spell, but the PL 20 sorcerer paid a lot more for his combined Sorcery power. I fail to see the lack of logic or the unbalance here.
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Postby Samurai » Mon May 10, 2004 12:01 am

IMHO, it is the entire system of Power Stunts that is broken, not just in Sorcery. I've altered the definitions of Power Stunts and Extras to make them much more restrictive, to prevent the chains of powers as Extras and Stunts. I can send you my rules changes, drbino, if you'd like to see them...

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Re: Sorcery: every extra spell costs the same as a power stu

Postby tesuji » Mon May 10, 2004 4:45 am

drbino wrote: That is not logical, because an extra spell cast by a power rank 2 sorceror would have much less effect than that same spell cast by a power rank 20 sorceror, yet they would cost each character a constant 2 points.

Can anyone clarify?


To get sorcery at level 2 with one extra spell (assume all 7 schools used) costs 16 pp (14 for level 2 sorcery and 2 for the one extra spell.)

To get the same for sorcery 20 costs 142 pp.

What "extra spell" represents is a expanding of options, using the same points to do something different. That is different from adding a new level and becoming more powerful.

They system across the board makes "expanding" (a second power of the same effect type that cannot be used at the same time) cheap... power stunts and extra spells of already used schools.

Adding new powers or power levels is more expensive.

So far, in play for me and mine, it has worked fairly well. Power stunts (extra spells) have not been a problem.

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Postby drbino » Mon May 10, 2004 3:01 pm

So if I take my PL 10 sorceror and allocate an extra 20 of my 150 points for 10 extra spells, added to the 7 spells as default, my character will have 17 different powers all at power level 10. Egggggcellent! ;)

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Postby farik » Mon May 10, 2004 3:12 pm

drbino wrote:So if I take my PL 10 sorceror and allocate an extra 20 of my 150 points for 10 extra spells, added to the 7 spells as default, my character will have 17 different powers all at power level 10. Egggggcellent! ;)


Yes but all of those powers will havwe the flaw of being sorcery. Something that disrupts or negates sorcery will affect all of those powers. You won't be able to use them is you are snared or otherwise made incapable of casting spells. It may seem powerful in theory but in practice it's not as impressive as you might think.
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby drbino » Mon May 10, 2004 3:22 pm

Bah. Storm's powers are all drawn from her mutant ability to control weather. Cyclop's powers are all drawn from his eye beams. Superman draws all his power from Earth's yellow Sun. Dr. Strange's powers are all drawn from his magic. This is not an uncommon theme among superheroes. Actually, the character type you are implying, one who has all sorts of powers taken from various sources, is more of a nerfed powergamer RPG character who is designed to be mechanically perfect rather than your classic kind of superhero.

I'll settle for all magic. Dr. Strange didn't turn out so bad, being the sorceror supreme of Earth and all. ;) If my guy gets whipped the one time he faces an anti-magic villain, so be it. It happens to every character sooner or later.

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Postby farik » Mon May 10, 2004 3:31 pm

I'm not saying sorcery is less effective than other complex power builds I'm saying it isn't more effective. Sorcery is no more or less effective than any power. Storm's mutant powers are really weather control with a few extras and a lot of stunts.

If you like the idea of sorcery then use the sorcery power. If you just want a diverse power suite the nice thing about MnM is that you can make that suite in all kinds of different ways.

One thing of note not all sorcery powers are at the full ranks of the sorcery. The "spells" that have a base cost of 3pp (instead of 2 or 1) are at 2/3rds the sorcery rank. Some people have house ruled an additional flaw on those "spells" brings them up to the sorcery power rank.
One man's hobo booze is another man's fiiiine sippin' wine.



Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby drbino » Mon May 10, 2004 7:02 pm

farik wrote:One thing of note not all sorcery powers are at the full ranks of the sorcery. The "spells" that have a base cost of 3pp (instead of 2 or 1) are at 2/3rds the sorcery rank.


I looked in the sourcebook and in the errata but could not find that rule.

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Postby Sacremas » Mon May 10, 2004 7:18 pm

Also note that you dont really have to buy up the extra spells in the first case, unless you flaw the sorcery power to remove that ability you can use Extra effort (a hero point or be fatigued) to cast any spell on the list, and more if you work it out with your GM such as incorporeal spells, etc.

All in all Sorcery is pretty darn impressive, but it has its limitations and costs a lot compared to most other powers. Remember for instance that you can only use one spell from each spell type at the same time for instance as with normal power stunted powers. Also you're pretty invested in the sorcery most likely, so if someone somehow keeps you from using your sorcery you're most likely pretty useless. Most GM's will be able of doing such to your character at least ever third session or so even if its just for a few rounds.
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Postby drbino » Mon May 10, 2004 7:52 pm

Sacremas wrote:Most GM's will be able of doing such to your character at least ever third session or so even if its just for a few rounds.


That goes for any character in any campaign. The DM can beat your ass no matter what kind of character you put together. If you're designing a character to be GM-proof, you're in it for the wrong reason. I've never used that as a reason why or why not to make a certain character. In a good GM/Player relationship, the GM is there to facilitate the story and to make the game fun, not just to school you every other game so you remain humble. No GM I play under would do that. Not twice, anyway. ;)

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Postby farik » Mon May 10, 2004 8:05 pm

drbino wrote:
farik wrote:One thing of note not all sorcery powers are at the full ranks of the sorcery. The "spells" that have a base cost of 3pp (instead of 2 or 1) are at 2/3rds the sorcery rank.


I looked in the sourcebook and in the errata but could not find that rule.


well here is an example of Steve saying it.

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Healing, Mental Blast, and Possession should operate at 2/3 of the Sorcery power's rank. The next iteration of the errata and the guidelines in the Annual should clear this up.
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here's the thread:
http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2793&highlight=spells
One man's hobo booze is another man's fiiiine sippin' wine.



Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby drbino » Mon May 10, 2004 9:14 pm

Thanks. :) Sounds like duct tape, however: a clumsy fix. Are there examples of situations where other powers have to work at some fraction of their potential effectiveness?


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