Love for 1E

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
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Dr Lucien Sim
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Postby Dr Lucien Sim » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:38 am

I know what that's like first hand!
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Black Mamba
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Postby Black Mamba » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:17 am

Brawler wrote:I've always found it confusing when people say that they system can easily be abused. I've run alot of games, and I find that rules only get abused when the GM allows them to be. Whenver I run into this I just let the offending player know why I prefer not to allow said offense and how it could potentially spoil the experience for the entire group.

Every GM does not have the same level of fortitude that you might have. Some GMs find it difficult to tell their friends "no" or they might be concerned about losing one or more players. And some GMs do not even realize something has been abused until after the fact and then the players squawk about possible changes - players always want the advantage. Each situation is different.

I did not care for 1E because of the carbon-copy feel of the characters. Rank limits and the way Extras were added to Powers generally meant that everyone had the same basic +10 Powers. Fire Guy had fire Powers +10 with Force Field +10 and Flight +10. Cosmic Guy had Cosmic Power +10 with Force Field +10 and Flight +10. Ice Guy had Ice Control +10 with Ice Slides +10 and Protection +10. The only thing which made most super-powered characters different was their BAB. I prefer the character individuality that 2E grants me.
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

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Postby Brawler » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:26 am

I hear ya. I kinda feel like that individuality of characters your talking about, for me anyway, kind of feels like an illusion. I mean, Green Lantern creates a field to protect himself from an errant meteor and it bounces off. Superman poses powerfully while the same meteor bounces off his chest... it's all Protection to me man. Don't get me wrong, I like 2e. It works well. Steve did a fantastic job making the system a lot more robust. I just find it's ground a little too fine for my taste.
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Postby Demongg » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:39 am

Black Mamba wrote:I did not care for 1E because of the carbon-copy feel of the characters. Rank limits and the way Extras were added to Powers generally meant that everyone had the same basic +10 Powers. Fire Guy had fire Powers +10 with Force Field +10 and Flight +10. Cosmic Guy had Cosmic Power +10 with Force Field +10 and Flight +10. Ice Guy had Ice Control +10 with Ice Slides +10 and Protection +10. The only thing which made most super-powered characters different was their BAB. I prefer the character individuality that 2E grants me.



I rarely look to disagree about the differences between 1e and 2e and Mamba and I have had our share of bad arguements (I'm NOT trying to start one here BM) but I have to disagree with your point here still.

The reason is that NONE of my players in all the time I played with 1e ever ever ever ALWAYS "maxed out" their character stats like this. If we were playing PL10 everyone built a cool character, not a cool character that maxed out every stat maximum for powers, skills, abilities, attack, defense, etc...

So I never really ever had that issue.

In fact I find 2e to be exactly like what you're describing. BECAUSE in 1e all the sample characters were built so that they we NOT all maxed out, that's what me and my game friends took our cues from. In 2e they are ALL maxed out in the key stats. When I first played 2e the GM used villains from the books and we built our heroes in 1e style (ie. not maxed out) and promptly got our asses handed to us...
It became blatently obvious that if we didn't max out our key stats we would be screwed.

At that time none of us yet understood the tradeoffs, so 2e was even more "carbon-copy" feeling than, I feel, it is now.


My point is, I felt that 2e sort of took away the creativity and self-balancing that a good GM and players that aren't mini-maxers can easily control.
2e is strict and balanced, and in a way I like that. But to me 2e feels like doing a math problem (hard and cold). Whereas 1e feels like doing an art project (warm and beautiful).


So for no matter how many people scream to the rafters the reasons why 2e is better than 1e, some people will always like the "art" of 1e.



that's my humble opinion
-kev-

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Postby Bravo » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:50 am

Demongg wrote:
Black Mamba wrote:I did not care for 1E because of the carbon-copy feel of the characters. Rank limits and the way Extras were added to Powers generally meant that everyone had the same basic +10 Powers. Fire Guy had fire Powers +10 with Force Field +10 and Flight +10. Cosmic Guy had Cosmic Power +10 with Force Field +10 and Flight +10. Ice Guy had Ice Control +10 with Ice Slides +10 and Protection +10. The only thing which made most super-powered characters different was their BAB. I prefer the character individuality that 2E grants me.



I rarely look to disagree about the differences between 1e and 2e and Mamba and I have had our share of bad arguements (I'm NOT trying to start one here BM) but I have to disagree with your point here still.

The reason is that NONE of my players in all the time I played with 1e ever ever ever ALWAYS "maxed out" their character stats like this. If we were playing PL10 everyone built a cool character, not a cool character that maxed out every stat maximum for powers, skills, abilities, attack, defense, etc...

So I never really ever had that issue.

In fact I find 2e to be exactly like what you're describing. BECAUSE in 1e all the sample characters were built so that they we NOT all maxed out, that's what me and my game friends took our cues from. In 2e they are ALL maxed out in the key stats. When I first played 2e the GM used villains from the books and we built our heroes in 1e style (ie. not maxed out) and promptly got our asses handed to us...
It became blatently obvious that if we didn't max out our key stats we would be screwed.

At that time none of us yet understood the tradeoffs, so 2e was even more "carbon-copy" feeling than, I feel, it is now.


My point is, I felt that 2e sort of took away the creativity and self-balancing that a good GM and players that aren't mini-maxers can easily control.
2e is strict and balanced, and in a way I like that. But to me 2e feels like doing a math problem (hard and cold). Whereas 1e feels like doing an art project (warm and beautiful).


So for no matter how many people scream to the rafters the reasons why 2e is better than 1e, some people will always like the "art" of 1e.



that's my humble opinion


Ok I'm not usually one to jump on one band wagon or another in the whole 1st ed vs 2nd ed - But I have to say that Demongg put is in a way the both expressed a wonderfully true statement (ie I agree with him) and explained the difference in the two eds - One is more hard number and the other is more fluid formed BOTH are equally usable and playable.

Well said Demongg! As in the end it really is the enjoyment of the game that is key!
Bravo

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Postby Black Mamba » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:38 pm

Demongg wrote:The reason is that NONE of my players in all the time I played with 1e ever ever ever ALWAYS "maxed out" their character stats like this. If we were playing PL10 everyone built a cool character, not a cool character that maxed out every stat maximum for powers, skills, abilities, attack, defense, etc...

So I never really ever had that issue.

Let us take a look through some M&M 1E sourcebooks for PL 10 characters:

M&M 1E core:
Cyclone: PL 10, Armor +10 with various Extras at +10.
Inferna: PL 10, Elemental Control +10 with all the various Extras at +10.
The Twist: PL 10, Shapeshift 10 with the various abilities at +10.
Knock-Off: PL 10, Mimic Powers 10 with the various Extras at +10.
Lady Hex: PL 10, Sorcery with all her spells doing +10.
Protonik: PL 10, Super-Strength 10, Flight 10.
Minotaur: PL 10, Super-Strength 10 with all the various Extras at +10.
Headcase: PL 10, Telepathy 10 with all the various Extras at +10.
Marathon: PL 10, Super-Speed 10.

Foes of Freedom 1E:
Get-A-Way: PL 10, Super-Speed 10 with various Extras at +10.
Grab: PL 10, Elasticity 10 with various Extras at +10.
Smash: PL 10, Super-Strength 10 with various Extras at +10.
Empath: PL 10, Telepathy 10 with the various Extras at +10.
Ember: PL 10, Energy Control -fire 10 with the various Extras at +10.
Aura: PL 10, Telepathy 10 with the various Extras at +10.
Argent: PL 10, Telekinesis 10 with the various Extras at +10.

That is enough for now. I do not have time to list out all the PL 10 characters in all the 1E books but it is fairly clear that the norm is for the character's primary Power to be at Rank with all Extras purchased that way as well. Likewise the PL 12 characters like Blackstar have Energy Control - Darkness 12 with all the various Extras at +12.

The game bred carbon copy characters where Inferna's Energy Control 10, Force Field 10, and Flight 10 was effectively no different then Lady Hex's Energy Blast 10, Force Field 10, and Flight 10.

It is very possible that you had PL 10 characters in your game who only took Elemental Control 8 or Super-Strength 6 rather then capping-out but that would be the exception to the rule as all the published character examples are showing you what the norm is.

1E was a simple and easy game to play and make characters for but it was not a game where people with super powers had much diversity. If you were PL 10 then your Powers were +10, and all your teammates' Powers were also at +10.
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

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Postby Demongg » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:37 pm

Black Mamba wrote:Let us take a look through some M&M 1E sourcebooks for PL 10 characters:
.



Oh... oh my gosh!
You're RIGHT... Holy Crap!! He's RIGHT!

Black Mamba is RIGHT everyone!!!
He's convinced me.
1e stinks... What on Earth have I been thinking?!?!!

Now and forever I will worship at the alter that Mamba has shown me.
There...
You win, Troll.

-kevin-
-kev-



"With great power..."

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Postby Black Mamba » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:59 pm

Demongg wrote:
Black Mamba wrote:Let us take a look through some M&M 1E sourcebooks for PL 10 characters:
.



Oh... oh my gosh!
You're RIGHT... Holy Crap!! He's RIGHT!

Black Mamba is RIGHT everyone!!!
He's convinced me.
1e stinks... What on Earth have I been thinking?!?!!

Now and forever I will worship at the alter that Mamba has shown me.
There...
You win, Troll.

-kevin-

How many times do you need to be warned that personal attacks are not allowed on this forum? Apparently always once more. You have been reported, again.
In this world of armchair bloggers, who've created a generation of critics instead of leaders, I'm actually doing something. Right here. Right now; for the city. For my country" - Oliver Queen, Smallville

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Postby Kit » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:49 pm

Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated.

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Last edited by Kit on Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bravo » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:45 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Take it any way you want to guys - but I am laughing at someone pretty hard and if thats a personal attack - well go tell someone who cares! And while your at it light a candle at that alter as well!
Bravo



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Postby Kit » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:49 pm

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated. If this continues to be a problem, Green Ronin WILL ban not only the persons making the attacks, but ALL 1E DISCUSSION WILL BE BANNED if it's going to result in personal attacks and issues that we have to take time to mediate.

Am I clear now?

Kit
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And now and then stab, as occasion serves.



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Postby Nikchick » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:03 pm

Bravo wrote:Take it any way you want to guys - but I am laughing at someone pretty hard and if thats a personal attack - well go tell someone who cares! And while your at it light a candle at that alter as well!


Calling someone a troll is off limits, yes.

I will refer everyone to the Terms of Service for these message boards.

    Play nice.

    If a moderator or administrator finds that someone is being unpleasant, irritating, or not contributing to (or is actively working against) board harmony, that person can be given a private or public talking-to, may have his or her posts deleted, and might just get banned, at the sole discretion of the Web site management.

    We’ll try to give you one or more warnings before we take action against you or your posts, but we don’t have to. Once we notice or hear about misconduct on the boards, our time is officially being wasted, and we will act swiftly and as we see fit so that we can get back to creating great games.

    There is no "But the admin didn't explicitly forbid me from doing [rude thing x]" provision.

    We do not tolerate racism, bigotry, name-calling, intolerance, or sexual allusions regarding anyone’s parent or guardian. Play nice or you can’t play here at all.

    Pretend someone you love and respect is going to judge you by your behavior here, and then act like you're trying to impress them by being a decent human being. Even if you’re not a decent human being, just act like one in here and you’ll have no problems.

    Membership on the board is a privilege, not a right.


Bottom line: don't be a jerk. If you're being a big enough jerk to attract my attention, that's probably not a good sign. To reiterate: avoid being unpleasant, irritating, or not contributing to /actively working against board harmony (which includes bickering with the Mods) or take a break from the boards.
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Postby Bravo » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:52 pm

Nikchick wrote:
Bravo wrote:Take it any way you want to guys - but I am laughing at someone pretty hard and if thats a personal attack - well go tell someone who cares! And while your at it light a candle at that alter as well!


Calling someone a troll is off limits, yes.

I will refer everyone to the Terms of Service for these message boards.

    Play nice.

    If a moderator or administrator finds that someone is being unpleasant, irritating, or not contributing to (or is actively working against) board harmony, that person can be given a private or public talking-to, may have his or her posts deleted, and might just get banned, at the sole discretion of the Web site management.

    We’ll try to give you one or more warnings before we take action against you or your posts, but we don’t have to. Once we notice or hear about misconduct on the boards, our time is officially being wasted, and we will act swiftly and as we see fit so that we can get back to creating great games.

    There is no "But the admin didn't explicitly forbid me from doing [rude thing x]" provision.

    We do not tolerate racism, bigotry, name-calling, intolerance, or sexual allusions regarding anyone’s parent or guardian. Play nice or you can’t play here at all.

    Pretend someone you love and respect is going to judge you by your behavior here, and then act like you're trying to impress them by being a decent human being. Even if you’re not a decent human being, just act like one in here and you’ll have no problems.

    Membership on the board is a privilege, not a right.

Bottom line: don't be a jerk. If you're being a big enough jerk to attract my attention, that's probably not a good sign. To reiterate: avoid being unpleasant, irritating, or not contributing to /actively working against board harmony (which includes bickering with the Mods) or take a break from the boards.


So I am singled out even tho i said nothing about any one being a troll?!? My laughing is a personal attack at whom exactly?!? I mean really did i name any person then provide an "is a blanking blank". As a consumer i own both 1st ed and 2nd ed I have a do enjoy both systems and in 100% honesty I think that the whole thing is apples and oranges! If i have been a jerk is such a manner that i am the one singled out please have the common decency to contact me in some manner privately - but I personally find the whole concept of if someone is pissed off all they have to do is run to a mod in order to ban someone from posting a bit extreme. As for my own comment about not caring if my comment is taken as personal attack or not - i guess sarcastic wit does not read well on line.....

My own comment was made after reading the forum for like the millionth time and seeing the same song and dance about which is better then finally someone spoke up and explained it in a fashion that cast both eds in a positive light - my laughing comment was over how it went from civil communication to civil war - and thinking that my original post idea of "girls girls you are both pretty and you can both go to the prom" would be a personal attack - but again i refrained. I play nice with everyone and have been a supporter of this site and your products for several years now.

and thats just my 2 cents about it! If this gets me banded - its a sad day indeed and not just fro those of us who love the game. But those of us who love the game and have a voice.
Bravo



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Postby farik » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:03 am

Have you ever heard the phrase "don't poke the bear"?

This thread is locked while GR Staff and Moderators discuss a further course of action. Comments or concerns may be directed to the Mod Squad via PMs. We appreciate the patience of all those who this action inconveniences.

Happy Posting
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.


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