Can you actually kill anyone in this game????

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
Ophidian
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Can you actually kill anyone in this game????

Postby Ophidian » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:06 am

How do you kill an opponent is M&M 1st Edition????

Sure you can (I assume) coup de grace an unconcious one.
Sure an opponent can risk death by taking strenuous action after severe lethal damage.
Sure minions die.

But how do you put down an non-minion opponent who is disabled and refuses to take a strenuous action when all you have is a lethal attack???

I've had some folks send me the 2nd edition rules for this, but was there ever a 1st edition answer?

<enter rant mose>
I've sent this question to GR multiple times, but gotten no reply!
I've search for an errata that answers it, but can't find one!
I've search these forums and not found one!

Rather annoying that they don't have this posted somewhere obvious.
Do they expect us to buy 2nd ed. because our 1st ed, copies are "defective"???

I'd be more inclined to get the 2nd ed. if GR would actually answer questions!
But they've given me little reason to believe the any flaws in the product will being addressed except for what may be burried deep in these forums. ;(
<end rant mode>

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Postby Nikchick » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:19 am

Ophidian, you might be able to get help with your question here but you need to be aware that Green Ronin is a small company with only 6 full-time staff members to handle everything from bookkeeping, mail orders, and maintaining our 3 company/game support websites and forums to developing our D20, OGL, True20, and M&M lines, not to mention the game design and development we do for Black Industries (the Warhammer Roleplay line and the creation of the Warhammer 40,000 Roleplaying Game, currently).

That means, first and foremost, that we're not able to provide detailed support for an edition of our game that is no longer current or in print. It means that we do not have 24-hour customer service support, a staff of flunkies handling rules questions, or a big office with a mail room and an HR department. It also means that you may need to be patient about getting "official" answers to your questions. For example, this week four of our staff members will be at the Origins convention that is happening in Columbus, Ohio. If you get an "official" answer to your questions, it's because the designer and line developer himself took time out of his work day to address your issue.

We don't expect anyone to upgrade to M&M 2nd Edition against their will, and we don't think the first edition was "broken". We do feel the second edition is improved, however, and as it is the only edition currently in print, it is also the only edition we're devoting our limited resources to actively supporting.
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MindMelterDeluxe
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Killing as a Hero

Postby MindMelterDeluxe » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:41 am

Since M&M does a commendable job of encapsulating the comic book genre, one reason that you may not have found the answer to your question is because it's assumed that you are playing a person with at least an average moral compass.

Someone who has a respect for all life, little if any cruelty, and a who has and who tried to help and protect instead of killing (a shoplifter, bank robber, or etc.).

Most new players to the game need to be reminded of that especially if there are (technically) no alignments or codes to follow.

MMD

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Postby Ophidian » Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:40 am

Nikchick wrote:That means, first and foremost, that we're not able to provide detailed support for an edition of our game that is no longer current or in print.


It was the first few times I wrote.

Nikchick wrote:It also means that you may need to be patient about getting "official" answers to your questions.


I would count occassionally repeated tries since the release as patient.

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Re: Killing as a Hero

Postby Ophidian » Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:46 am

MindMelterDeluxe wrote:Since M&M does a commendable job of encapsulating the comic book genre, one reason that you may not have found the answer to your question is because it's assumed that you are playing a person with at least an average moral compass.


That's a valid assumption for PC's, but for villians?

I'd cite Marvel SAGA as doing a good job of displaying the take you suggest.

It explicitly mentions that there is no mechanic for killing in its rules for the very reasons you cite.

Yet they include a statement that despite that deaths, ARE a part of comics stories.
And that they should be handled in game as rare but possible.
They should occur when "dramatically appropriate"; GM's call with players' opinions accounted for.

Such a disclaimer in M&M would make the lack of a rule look intentional rather than look like an accidental omission.

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Postby Evendur » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:08 pm

Well, firstly, Superbeings are hard to kill, which is part of what makes them super.

To kill someone with a Lethal attack, just keep pounding away until they fail a save by enough.

With a Subdual attack, the only thing I can say is to Extra effort for the dual damage power stunt so you can do lethal abd the Hero Point to remove the fatigue. The repeat the lethal damage strategy.
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"See this med-pack? See this gun? These mean the only people dying here today are the ones I kill!" -Field Medic, Cyberpunk Card Game

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Postby Ophidian » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:15 pm

Evendur wrote:To kill someone with a Lethal attack, just keep pounding away until they fail a save by enough.


That's only for the optional Massive Damage rule.

As far as I can see, in 1st edition you cannot kill someone with a Lethal attack just by repeatedly hitting them, _unless_ you use that rule.

Heck, without using that option you can't even knock someone unconcious with a Lethal attack!

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Postby Evendur » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:12 pm

Well, we always used that rule :oops:

but doesn't it say if like a dying person fails a damage save, they die?
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Postby Ophidian » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:39 pm

Evendur wrote:Well, we always used that rule :oops:

but doesn't it say if like a dying person fails a damage save, they die?


Yes, but there's no way to take an oponent from Disabled to Dying short of maybe some kind of mind control to make them exert themself.

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Postby Paragon Protector » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:38 pm

Ophidian wrote:Yes, but there's no way to take an oponent from Disabled to Dying short of maybe some kind of mind control to make them exert themself.


Actually, yes there is. Re-read the Combat chapter. Specifically, page 128.

Lethal damage inflicted on a Disabled character shifts their condition to Dying.

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Postby Ophidian » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:05 am

Paragon Protector wrote:Actually, yes there is. Re-read the Combat chapter. Specifically, page 128.

Lethal damage inflicted on a Disabled character shifts their condition to Dying.


Just reread it.
Unless I'm completely blind that isn't in my copy.
Where on the page is it?
Was there a second printing of the first edition?

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Postby Evendur » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:40 am

It might have been in the Errata because it was missed in the first printing
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Make them UP ... Your own rules

Postby MindMelterDeluxe » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:29 am

If the specific rules don't exist then you have to have the 'heroic' mantle to make 'em yourself.

Just like the errors made between the character sheet in (M&M 1e) and the lifting/encumberance section vs. the rules on page 104.

I find it difficult to believe that a character with Str. of 8 can lift 80 lbs above there head for any amount of time, to say nothing about the max lift of 160lbs.

Sorry off topic :shock:

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Re: Make them UP ... Your own rules

Postby Ophidian » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:53 am

MindMelterDeluxe wrote:If the specific rules don't exist then you have to have the 'heroic' mantle to make 'em yourself.


True, but it still leaves me curious what the intended rule was.

And it's easier to use the same rule the playtesters and other players are using as it's more likely to have been balanced out and tweaked than anything I'd invent.

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Postby Paragon Protector » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:05 pm

True, but it still leaves me curious what the intended rule was.


I bought my copy of 1e right before 2e came out, so I got the most up-to-date version, I guess. :) Assuming my copy contained the errata, I'd wager you can assume the bit I quoted is the intended rule.


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