Errata & FAQ Updates

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
WillyPete
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Postby WillyPete » Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:20 pm

dr jekyll wrote:Penetrating Attack, with or without the current errata, still seems to be broken. This seems to need some rethinking.


Agreed!
For whatever it's worth, I've kind of 'Championized' it, via a House Rule...
Make it an Extra, rather than a Feat, and reduce the target's Protection by 1 level, for every level of Penetrating you have on an attack (but not to less than 0).

How's that sound?
Good Luck,
William A. Peterson
"There is nothing quite so exhiliarating in the World as being shot at... and missed!" Winston Churchill

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Postby Ravennus » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:26 pm

WillyPete wrote:
dr jekyll wrote:Penetrating Attack, with or without the current errata, still seems to be broken. This seems to need some rethinking.


Agreed!
For whatever it's worth, I've kind of 'Championized' it, via a House Rule...
Make it an Extra, rather than a Feat, and reduce the target's Protection by 1 level, for every level of Penetrating you have on an attack (but not to less than 0).

How's that sound?


That's close to what I've done, but I've also kept the other kind of armor piercing as well, for flavor.

The feat version of penetrating is your typical armor piercing ammo, really sharp blade, etc....

To emulate the effects of, say, Wolverine's Adamantium Claws or a Railgun bullet (the railgun being the reason I figured this out... see my latest entry here... http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/ph ... php?t=8092 ) You can just add disintigration (for ranged attacks) or corrosion (for melee attacks) as an extra to the power. This would allow you to reduce the level of Protection or Armor (but not dmg saves, except maybe if you bought the disruption extra as well) by the rank of the disintigration extra you bought for your attack power (with the various levels representing better or worse armor penetrating effectiveness). This is like the power you made, WillyPete.

Now, of course, you probably don't want to completely destroy whatever armor you are attacking, or whatever barrier you might be attacking through (hehe, a cool trick!)...as that is what disintigration or corrosion does (typically reduces the hardness of the object, so if it is high enough you can vaporize an entire door, or in the least damage the entire object as a whole).

So...add the flaw: Only For Penetration, meaning that even though it cuts through that armor or barrier, the small hole or claw mark won't be enough to reduce the overall effectiveness of the door or armor.

Note, that if you ALSO added the disruption extra to your disintigration, this would make it so that whoever/whatever organic you shot at wouldn't have to make an extra dmg save equal the rank of your disintigration (minus their reduced armor/protection) but their damage save would still be reduced if the rank you bought of disintigration was high enough to completely reduce their protection/armor to zero with some left over.

Example - Villian is wearing a rank 5 armor vest, with a damage save of +6. You have a railgun with weapon rank 10 and disintigration added as an extra with the disruption extra and the Penetrating Only flaw. You hit him, and reduce his armor vest by it's full 5 levels, bringing it to zero. You still have 5 ranks left of disintigration that hits him, with the disruption feat. There goes 5 points of his dmg save, bringing him to roll his dmg save with only a +1 (Note: I would rule you obviously can't reduce someone to less than a 0 dmg save). Now, if you hadn't taken the penetrating only flaw, that armor vest would be toast, the disintigration removing all of it's hardness/armor because it is a device. That's the drawback to devices. I wouldn't allow a superguys protection to be permanently brought down or taken out completely. That's the advantage to it being a superpower, though it would still be penetrated normally. Then once the attack cut through the armor, the Villian would make the normal damage save versus the railgun, then make another as if the weapon had an energy field extra at a level equal to whatever was left from the disintigration..in this example, another 5 levels. So another dmg save is made versus 5 dmg (I thought of it being versus the full rank of disintigration, but that's too powerful, and should be bought with the energy field extra...combining both being limited to the normal power stacking limits, of course). Though remember...this save is also reduced by 5 because of the disruption extra. Pretty nasty...the bad guys vest is vaporized along with most of his tough hide, leaving little to resist the effects of the weapon. Too bad he sucked at dodging! :P

As you can tell, you don't have to add the Flaw: Penetrating Only, especially if you want a really big and devastating penetrating blast or melee attack...but it's cool for the small holes a railgun bullet would leave.

Note: Remember that adding a flaw to an extra or power can't reduce it's cost to less that 1pp...but I was informed of an optional rule in the Annual that allows you to devide the cost. So adding a flaw to a 1pp/rank extra or power changes the cost to 1pp/per 2 ranks.
So buying 10 ranks in Disintigration (as an extra) with the Flaw: Penetrating Only costs 5 power points. Not bad...but still more expensive than the less effective Penetrating Feat.

Don't worry...this might seem complex, but is actually quite simple. I just wanted to explain it fully. :D

-Ravennus

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Postby WillyPete » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:34 pm

Interesting, but either way (your 'Disintegration', or my 'Armor Piercing') might have 'Cap' issues, for games that pay attention to such things...
In order to use a Level 10 Disintegration Extra (never mind the Disruption) on a level 10 Attack, you'd need to be 20th level, wouldn't you?
Good Luck,

William A. Peterson

"There is nothing quite so exhiliarating in the World as being shot at... and missed!" Winston Churchill

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Post-Errata Force Fields...

Postby WillyPete » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:39 pm

I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death, and I just haven't seen it, yet...
{feel free to point me to the prior discussion, if it has!}
But I just noticed that, in the Errata (yes, I'm way behind!), Force Field has been increased in cost to 2 points per level, the same as for Protection!

Okay, sure...
You can maybe take all those nifty extras that FF has...
but Force Field has a limited Duration, while Protection is Permanent!
What gives?

The fact that Extras are 'available' really doesn't seem, to me, to justify the increased cost, since some people might well want to take FF without all those Extras! Why not just take Protection with a Duration Flaw, instead?
Good Luck,

William A. Peterson

"There is nothing quite so exhiliarating in the World as being shot at... and missed!" Winston Churchill

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Postby Ravennus » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:09 pm

WillyPete wrote:Interesting, but either way (your 'Disintegration', or my 'Armor Piercing') might have 'Cap' issues, for games that pay attention to such things...
In order to use a Level 10 Disintegration Extra (never mind the Disruption) on a level 10 Attack, you'd need to be 20th level, wouldn't you?


Hmmm, I don't see why. It's a seperate 'attack' as it were. The disintigration or corrosion attacks the barrier and/or armor, and the actual weapon/energy blast/natural weapon, etc attacks the actual bad guy or character.

The only difference would be with it affecting the character underneath all the armor as well, with the disruption extra. But then again, it's the same as adding an extra dmg saving throw because of the energy field extra. Without the presence of a barrier, armor, presence, etc...it acts just like the energy field extra exept for the additional reduction in dmg saving throw, which is why disintigration with the disruption extra costs more than just energy field.

As far as I know, Energy Field doesn't stack with the attack it's added to concerning the dmg cap. They count as two seperate attacks and two seperate saving throws.

Besides that, I know what you mean...essentially, it makes the attack seem like it does more damage because it reduces the opponents saving throw. Well, I say, allow it...
If you want to pay for it, it cuts through armor. Period.
Especially with the Flaw: Penetrating Armor, it's only going to affect the barrier or armor. Opponent only wearing a rank 5 armor vest and you have bought disintigration as an extra up to rank 10? Yeah, you bypass that armor, but the rest of the disintigration effect is wasted.

*shrug* How else do you work those favourite Adamantium Claws of ours, or my railgun?
If you can think of another way to make a railgun that can shoot through walls using MnM, I'd really like to hear it (I'm not being sarcastic, btw :) ).

Let me know what you think.
-Ravennus

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Re: Post-Errata Force Fields...

Postby Ravennus » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:14 pm

WillyPete wrote:I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death, and I just haven't seen it, yet...
{feel free to point me to the prior discussion, if it has!}
But I just noticed that, in the Errata (yes, I'm way behind!), Force Field has been increased in cost to 2 points per level, the same as for Protection!

Okay, sure...
You can maybe take all those nifty extras that FF has...
but Force Field has a limited Duration, while Protection is Permanent!
What gives?

The fact that Extras are 'available' really doesn't seem, to me, to justify the increased cost, since some people might well want to take FF without all those Extras! Why not just take Protection with a Duration Flaw, instead?


I'm not sure if they had it in the first printing, but in the second printing, while Force Field costs 2pp/rank it says you also get to choose a free extra as well. Doesn't that make up for it?

But you are right...concept wise, if you just want Force Field without ANY extras (including the free one), just modify Protection how you said. They do the same thing.
Just describe it however you want. After all, this is an effect based system. How we describe these powers are up to us! :)

-Ravennus

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Postby WillyPete » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:25 pm

On the disintegration thing, I personally prefer to ditch the Damage Caps entirely, and let people buy whatever they can afford!
But, those who are concerned with 'Game Balance' (poor, deluded fools though they might be) would likely shriek in horror at your suggestion...
AND, so would those who bought their characters without challenging the 'Cap', now looking at what you're doing to get around it...

IF I were worried about the Cap, I would never allow it!
I feel similarly about things like 'Drain' being used at the same time as another attack...

As to the Force Field, yes,a free extra DOES make up for it!
It's too bad that wasn't mentioned in the October 4 errata that I'd just read!
{Sorry to have bothered you, but I AM glad that I asked!}
Good Luck,

William A. Peterson

"There is nothing quite so exhiliarating in the World as being shot at... and missed!" Winston Churchill

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Postby WillyPete » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:38 pm

ironchicken wrote:THe extra or stunt, triggered on first power, only on first power little set. Should be in the FAQ.

My understanding is:
[...]

Force field should lose the free extra and drop to 1PL. It costs 2 but gets a free extra seems silly to me.

[...]
Define number of free actions... 2 + dex bonus or 2 + Int bonus whichever larger.

Is a changed save type, for example changing from reflex to fort save or reflex to will save worth an extra? When is it and when is it not?


Seeing as I just asked the question on Force fields...
There are things that Force field can do, such as block Phased attacks, that Protection cannot do....
That, and they presumably didn't want to allow all those Extras on a 1 point Power, I guess...
I think it's a reasonable compromise (though it needs to be put into the Errata!)...

As to the Free Actions 'problem', it's probably better off as is...
Yes, there are a LOT of things that you can do as a 'free action', and being able to do a dozen, or a hundred, of them at once seems a tad silly...
But, so does Captain America being able to (functionally) deliver the Gettysburg Address while somersaulting across a telephone line!
The alternative would make some character types nearly impossible, I'm afraid, and it would *certainly* be unfair to implement such a change once the game had actually started!
Make it a 'house rule' when you're tryign to do a particulary 'grim and gritty' campaign, perhaps, but such a rule does NOT belong in a 4-color game!

In a point-build game like M&M, I don't think changing the save type is worth very much... Certainly not more than a Feat! Certain parts of the game are hold-overs from D20, and should be reassessed...
Good Luck,

William A. Peterson

"There is nothing quite so exhiliarating in the World as being shot at... and missed!" Winston Churchill

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Postby Paragon » Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:36 pm

WillyPete wrote:
In a point-build game like M&M, I don't think changing the save type is worth very much... Certainly not more than a Feat! Certain parts of the game are hold-overs from D20, and should be reassessed...


When I asked Steve about this way back, he stated that you can pretty much swap around between Fortitude, Reflex and Will at will; but if you were goint to substitute one of the above for a Damage Save, that should probably be an extra.
And we by this sole token;
Know we once were gods;
Take shame in being broken;
No matter how great the odds.

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Speedster Archtype Power Point Total

Postby Bazzie » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:42 am

I believe there is an error in the Speedster Archtype. There is 4 extra power points that I can't account for, a total of 154.

As someone pointed out it in response to my original post on this matter it may be that the Dex modifier was added to the Disable Device skill instead of the Int modifier.

By the Rules:
Disable Device +8 [+ 8 (Ranks) + 0 (Int) = 8 Power Points]

Possible Mistake Made:
Disable Device +8 [+4 (Ranks) + 4 (Dex) = 4 Power Points]

This would nicely account for the extra 4 points.

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Postby arcady » Fri May 06, 2005 11:47 pm

GGtG, page 14, under purchasing ranks in Knowledge and Science. One of the subskills chosen, 'astrophysics', isn't one of the subskills that exists on the list on page 15. It comes under physics which was also chosen by the character in that example.

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arcady
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Postby arcady » Fri May 06, 2005 11:54 pm

GGtG:

Page 23 lists a pistol as Diminutive or Tiny, but page 24 lists it as Medium.

This is important as Pistol is the size listed by the Utility Belt extra on page 8.

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arcady
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Postby arcady » Sat May 07, 2005 12:01 pm

GGtG:

Page 28, colum 2 suggests limiting NPCs to the guidelines in table 3-1 on page 27 for gadgets, including weapons and armor.

This flies in the face of the core rules that suggest letting NPCs break the normal PL limits, such as giving a PL 2 policeman or thug a PL 5 gun.

According to GGtG that same policeman or thug is nude :oops: - he or she is not allowed even PL 1 gadgets and has zero gadget points.

While that might work in a 'John Carter of Mars' setting, ( :D ), it's not exactly fitting for MnM.

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Postby Dr. Nuncheon » Sat May 07, 2005 5:45 pm

arcady wrote:GGtG:

Page 23 lists a pistol as Diminutive or Tiny, but page 24 lists it as Medium.


The former is the actual size of the device, the latter appears to refer to the size of the weilder it was designed for.

J

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Postby arcady » Sat May 07, 2005 6:46 pm

Not according to the first two sentences on page 24:

"Most of the time, you can assume that a character uses a weapon with a size equal to his own. For most heroes, their rifles, pistols, swords, and other armaments are Medium."


The conflicting quote from page 23:

"Diminutive or Tiny
These items are roughly the size of a small box. It includes pistols, daggers, and other small weapons."

It becomes extremely important to know which quote is correct in light of the wording on the Utility Belt extra, which bases its costs not on a size category, but on "pistol size", leaving page 24 making that Medium and 23 leaving that Diminutive. Given table 2-5, that makes the pp/r of a gadget -VERY- different.


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