1e M&M (Confused and looking for understanding?)

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
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Dread Lord
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Postby Dread Lord » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:45 pm

Paragon wrote:
Dread Lord wrote:Energy Blast 5 isn't all that bad really, esp. in a low power game. It represemts about the limit of man portable fire power in the palm of your hand.


And I'm just saying that a heavy handgun (which did +5 damage in 1e) doesn't seem much of a superpower to me.


We're talking about PL 5 heroes here. Not Super Man or even Gambet, lower PL than even the New Warriors. If you're playing PL5 characters in a PL 10 world you're going to feel small. But in a setting where PL5 is the upper level in the world it's quite impressive.

This is probably the realm of pulp comics and stories. Twarting Fumanchew (sp) rather than Thanos.

There's a reason that PL 10 is the standard though, that's about where you can start hitting the levels of DC or Marvel heroes and their adventures.
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Postby Paragon » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:54 pm

Dread Lord wrote:
Paragon wrote:
Dread Lord wrote:Energy Blast 5 isn't all that bad really, esp. in a low power game. It represemts about the limit of man portable fire power in the palm of your hand.


And I'm just saying that a heavy handgun (which did +5 damage in 1e) doesn't seem much of a superpower to me.


We're talking about PL 5 heroes here. Not Super Man or even Gambet,



Pretty much irrelevant. If you can go out and buy an ability as a device that is relatively concealable that is as good as the power, I'm just not impressed. Yes, there are some advantages, but not enough that I much care.

[/quote]

lower PL than even the New Warriors. If you're playing PL5 characters in a PL 10 world you're going to feel small. But in a setting where PL5 is the upper level in the world it's quite impressive.

[quote]

I simply don't agree, as long as the standards of real world weapons and gear stay the same. Even in a pulp game, someone doing a ranged attack that does +5 damage just isn't going to impress me much; yes its abnormal, but his strong (but not superhuman) buddy with a knife can do more. It's just not that big a deal to me.
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Postby Greyman » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:24 pm

Paragon wrote:
Dread Lord wrote:Energy Blast 5 isn't all that bad really, esp. in a low power game. It represemts about the limit of man portable fire power in the palm of your hand.
And I'm just saying that a heavy handgun (which did +5 damage in 1e) doesn't seem much of a superpower to me.
You can't complain that powers are low in a low power campaign; it's a feature, not a flaw.

Blast 5 may be not so impressive, but if you add a few power stunts and extras, you can build a power with more utitility than a mere handgun. In low powered games, flexibility of design should be the goal, not overwhelming power.

If you want impressive special effects and overwhelming force, then a low powered campaign is simply not the right genre.

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Postby Paragon » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:47 am

Greyman wrote:
Paragon wrote:
Dread Lord wrote:Energy Blast 5 isn't all that bad really, esp. in a low power game. It represemts about the limit of man portable fire power in the palm of your hand.
And I'm just saying that a heavy handgun (which did +5 damage in 1e) doesn't seem much of a superpower to me.
You can't complain that powers are low in a low power campaign; it's a feature, not a flaw.


Of course you can; declaring it a feature is begging the question, since the objection is based on the fact that the low powered effects sometimes don't feel super. Saying "of course not, it's low powered!" is not a response to the objection, but an affirmation of it.
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Postby Grendel » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:07 am

I think it's more a matter of perspective. If a guy throws a power level 5 EB with the exploding extra into a room [roughly the same damage as a grenade] and it takes out the two mooks in there, it's going to seem a whole lot like a super power.
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Postby Paragon » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:28 am

Grendel wrote:I think it's more a matter of perspective. If a guy throws a power level 5 EB with the exploding extra into a room [roughly the same damage as a grenade] and it takes out the two mooks in there, it's going to seem a whole lot like a super power.


To me, its just going to seem like a grenade.
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Postby Vittek » Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:22 pm

yes, an infinite supply of grenades, that can't be stolen, can't mulfanction, is always usable, can be brought anywhere (no metal detector can find a super-power) and so on.

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Postby Paragon » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:54 am

Vittek wrote:yes, an infinite supply of grenades, that can't be stolen, can't mulfanction, is always usable, can be brought anywhere (no metal detector can find a super-power) and so on.


And none of that really makes it feel like a super power to me. Because 90% of the time, none of that would matter: how dangerous it is does.

As I've said, there are low powered powers that feel like super powers: Invisibility, Incorporeal, most mental powers. But low powered attacks dupicable by mundane weapons aren't it, even though you carry them around in your body effectively.
And we by this sole token;

Know we once were gods;

Take shame in being broken;

No matter how great the odds.

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Postby Greyman » Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:08 pm

Paragon wrote:
Greyman wrote:
Paragon wrote:
Dread Lord wrote:Energy Blast 5 isn't all that bad really, esp. in a low power game. It represemts about the limit of man portable fire power in the palm of your hand.
And I'm just saying that a heavy handgun (which did +5 damage in 1e) doesn't seem much of a superpower to me.
You can't complain that powers are low in a low power campaign; it's a feature, not a flaw.
Of course you can; declaring it a feature is begging the question, since the objection is based on the fact that the low powered effects sometimes don't feel super. Saying "of course not, it's low powered!" is not a response to the objection, but an affirmation of it.
To put it another way: If the square peg doesn't fit into a round hole becuase it's too square, it's not because there's anything wrong with the peg. It's supposed to be square, after all, the problem is just that you're trying to jam it into the wrong shaped hole.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to fill a round hole, but you need use a round peg to do it. Use the proper tools for the job.

Alternatively look at the things a square peg provides and play to those, rather than it's perceived lacks.

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Postby Greyman » Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:54 pm

Paragon wrote:
Vittek wrote:yes, an infinite supply of grenades, that can't be stolen, can't mulfanction, is always usable, can be brought anywhere (no metal detector can find a super-power) and so on.
And none of that really makes it feel like a super power to me. Because 90% of the time, none of that would matter: how dangerous it is does.
Then your GM is not running you through a proper street-level game where all of that should matter. Interaction and intregue are at least as important as beating down on the bad guys.
Paragon wrote:As I've said, there are low powered powers that feel like super powers: Invisibility, Incorporeal, most mental powers. But low powered attacks dupicable by mundane weapons aren't it, even though you carry them around in your body effectively.
If you leave the power as a straight blast and ignore attacking object rules, then you're not going to be satisfied with it. But add a few power stunts and a blast can do more than a common thug's gun; develop ways to deny your opponent their combat equipment and things will look different. You simply need to learn to attack and defend in less obvious ways.

In a low powered game your character won't have a great height of power; so instead should focus on acquiring some width. Heroics in low-powered games is all about making the most with limited resources, not grandstanding with fabtabulous firepower.

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Postby Paragon » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:03 am

Greyman wrote:
Paragon wrote:
Vittek wrote:yes, an infinite supply of grenades, that can't be stolen, can't mulfanction, is always usable, can be brought anywhere (no metal detector can find a super-power) and so on.
And none of that really makes it feel like a super power to me. Because 90% of the time, none of that would matter: how dangerous it is does.
Then your GM is not running you through a proper street-level game where all of that should matter.



I disagree. There are plenty of street level characters who never do covert work, and covert work is the only time this typically matters.

Paragon wrote:As I've said, there are low powered powers that feel like super powers: Invisibility, Incorporeal, most mental powers. But low powered attacks dupicable by mundane weapons aren't it, even though you carry them around in your body effectively.
If you leave the power as a straight blast and ignore attacking object rules, then you're not going to be satisfied with it. But add a few power stunts and a blast can do more than a common thug's gun; develop ways to deny your opponent their combat equipment and things will look different. You simply need to learn to attack and defend in less obvious ways.

[/quote]

This is working against the weakness of the attack, not denying it.


In a low powered game your character won't have a great height of power; so instead should focus on acquiring some width. Heroics in low-powered games is all about making the most with limited resources, not grandstanding with fabtabulous firepower.


And this is why they don't feel like superpowers.
And we by this sole token;

Know we once were gods;

Take shame in being broken;

No matter how great the odds.

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Postby Dread Lord » Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:46 pm

It still sounds like you're upset that PL5 characters arn't as super as PL10. If you want superpowers that really feel super then play PL10 games.

Some examples of characters that might fit a PL5 game:

Robocop, super str 5 and protection 5 fit ok, his gun is a heavy hand gun fitting well as blast 5. Weakness; disturbing, disabled (slow)

Ken (of Street fighter fame) Low powered energy blast, some strike ranks, good feats.

Lara Croft, two rank 3 weapons, some super DEX, chose feats focusing on speed and two weapons. High climb, jump, and acrobatics ranks.

Buffy (the vampire slayer) low super str, mid super dex, low super CON, weapon (pointy stick).

Predator (from the movies) low super STR and CON. Weapon(spear) PS ranged weapon, Low invisability (Flaw; cancled by water), Weakness; disturbing.

The Shadow. martial arts feats. mind control(extra invisability to living only) two ranged weapons. connected feat.
I sometimes wonder if I've ever made a smart decision.

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Postby Paragon » Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:56 pm

Dread Lord wrote:It still sounds like you're upset that PL5 characters arn't as super as PL10. If you want superpowers that really feel super then play PL10 games.



That was more or less my point; that at lower ranks many of them _don't_ feel like superpowers.
And we by this sole token;

Know we once were gods;

Take shame in being broken;

No matter how great the odds.

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Lower power game opinions

Postby MindMelterDeluxe » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:55 am

Just got through reading this thread.

Thanks for you opinions and counter-points regarding lower power games.
I'm starting everyone PL 2, ... I know ... I know.

I'm not concerned about their abilities so much as there ability to take damage. Too many feats will do that.

I have a couple posts about that in GM and 1e sections. Comment on them if you have time.

Thank for your views.

"Los Cobras? You mean Less Cobras ... we're all that's left, Ramon!"


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