penetrating attack

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Rickynet
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penetrating attack

Postby Rickynet » Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:32 pm

the rules in page 52 says

PENETRATING ATTACK
One or your attacks or powers is especially effective in overcoming resistance.
Benefit: Choose an attack or power When a target attempts to resist that attack or power, reduce their saving throw bonus by 2 (bat not to less than 0),
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack (if applied to the same attack or power) or apply to a different attack or power Powers with the Impervious extia ignore the effects of this feat

the erratas date 1/1/04 pdf version says

P. 52: PENETRATING ATTACK
Replace its description with the following:
One of your attacks or powers is particularly effective in overcoming
resistance.
Benefit: Choose an attack or power. When the target attempts to
resist that attack or power, reduce any Protection that they have by 2.
Once Protection is reduced to 0, any remaining reduction is applied to
the target’s saving throw bonus, which cannot be reduced below +0.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack (if
applied to the same attack or power) or apply to a different attack or
power. Each application of this feat is considered a +2 increase in the
attack or power’s rank for purposes of stacking limits (see p. 58).
Defenses with the Impervious extra ignore the effects of this feat.

so what protection that refers? saving throw

in the errata date 10/04/04 html says

p. 52: Penetrating Attack Replace its description with the following:
One of your attacks is more effective at penetrating Protection.
Benefit: Choose an attack. Targets of that attack must make a Damage saving throw even if the attack's damage bonus is less than the target's Protection bonus. Impervious Protection (p. 97) works normally against Penetrating Attacks.
Normal: You ignore attacks with a damage bonus less than your Protection bonus.


i dont understand what protection bonus refers, and now that feat dosn't stack?

all of my players have that feats i donn't realize that was a errata, now i look the most errata and i can understand it (maybe becouse my primary language is spanish)

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Postby solidcobra » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:44 am

Protection is a 2PP/rank power that works like amazing save (damage) with one exception...any attacks with a power under the protection rank auto-fails.

EXAMPLE TIME.
Minotaur, protection 10, super-strength 10, faces joe thug. Joe thug has a shotgun (+8L) and fires. Minotaur sneezes, at very most, in response without even having to roll. If however Joe Thug would've loaded that shotgun with HEIAPDS slugs (high explosive inverted armor piercing discarding sabot), IE: penetration attack, Minotaur would still have to roll his damage save like with any attack against a normal superhero.

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Postby the_masochist » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:20 am

solidcobra wrote:Protection is a 2PP/rank power that works like amazing save (damage) with one exception...any attacks with a power under the protection rank auto-fails.

EXAMPLE TIME.
Minotaur, protection 10, super-strength 10, faces joe thug. Joe thug has a shotgun (+8L) and fires. Minotaur sneezes, at very most, in response without even having to roll. If however Joe Thug would've loaded that shotgun with HEIAPDS slugs (high explosive inverted armor piercing discarding sabot), IE: penetration attack, Minotaur would still have to roll his damage save like with any attack against a normal superhero.


and considering the odds, he probably will still succeed,

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Postby Shepherd » Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:04 pm

EDIT: Kenson speaks. Protection still "works," it just forces a roll for the save instead of "magically" eliminating the roll entirely.

In more practical terms:

Albert, with a +8L Energy Blast, attacks Bobby, who has +10 Protection.

"Aha!" Bobby cries, "your attack is useless! My Protection means I don't even need to roll a save!"

"Not so!" Albert counters. "For I have Penetrating Attack!"

"Zounds!" Bobby screams.

So: +8L, Penetrating Attack, vs. +10 Protection.

NORMALLY (1): Protection means no save required. BUT Penetrating Attack means the AUTOMATIC SAVE that Protection provides is negated. But Protection is STILL ACTIVE.

NORMALLY (2): +8L Energy Blast means a DC23 save (15 + 8). BUT Protection is STILL ACTIVE, so the save is
(15 + (8 (Energy Blast)-10(Protection)).
so 15 + (8-10)
so 15 - 2
= 13.

NOW Bobby needs to roll a DMG save with a DC of 13. Will he make it? MOST LIKELY! But the CHANCE for Bobby to fail is now there, and that's what Penetrating Attack is all about.
Last edited by Shepherd on Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Hawkmansdaddy » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:12 pm

My understanding of how Protection works is like so:

against any 'normal' attack under +10, Minotaur's Dmg sv is considered automatically successful.

against any 'normal' attack +10 or higher, protection reduces the dmg bonus by 10, then Minotaur makes his sv against that reduced damage. Thus, an attack of +11 would be reduced to +1 (16) and one of +10 is reduced to +0 (15).

Penetrating attack forces a Dmg sv, regardless of Dmg bonus. So, that +8(L) penetrating attack requires Minotaur to make a DC 23 Dmg sv.

I think the confusion comes from using the term 'Protection bonus', when in fact protection works more like Damage Resistence; it reduces potential damage done.

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Postby Choice » Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:21 am

Being new to the game, I'm a bit confused on how a hero could ever take down a higher level villain.

The Lvl 10 Energy Girls, Anna, Betty and Candy, each have energy blast at level ten and protection at level 10.

Devilguy is their arch-enemy, a Lvl 11 bad guy with Lvl 11 energy Blast and Lvl 11 Protection.

The way I understand it, Anna, Betty and Candy could shoot at him all day, but they have no way of hurting him with their energy blasts because his protection is one level higher than their attacks? While Devilguy can blast away as he wishes and they have to make saves?

On the one hand I can see how Protection makes people essentially bullet proof. Superman never needs to make a save against conventional weapons. On the other hand, I dislike how important levels are in determining a fight. To me it's like the sign they have at roller coaster rides with You Have To Be This High to Fight This Guy.

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Postby Greyman » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:34 am

Choice wrote:The way I understand it, Anna, Betty and Candy could shoot at him all day, but they have no way of hurting him with their energy blasts because his protection is one level higher than their attacks? While Devilguy can blast away as he wishes and they have to make saves?
This is why its good to have power stunts on your main attack power that do something other than direct damage. Anna's Kinetic Energy Blast 10 [stunt: Stun 10] can attack against Devil Guy's Fortitude save instead of bouncing off his Impervious Damage save. Betty can make him use his Reflex save against her Sonic Energy Blast 10 [stunt: Dazzle 10]. And Candy's Dark Energy Blast 10 [stunt: Obscure 10 (Selective +1)] could give them cover while they made a stategic withdrawal.

Alternatively they could use Extra Effort to improve their blast's power or gain Penetrating Attack as temporary power stunt.

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Postby Rickynet » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:41 am

so penetrating attack dosnt work without protection power? i still understand the change of the feat, before substrack 2 to the damege save and it was more easy, now trhe feat is still stacking, or only work one time?

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Postby Rickynet » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:46 am

another question, now penetrating attack it is only for damage save, in the old rule, it was for andy roll save, i hacve a player with transfer and penetratick attack for substrack from the reflex save

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Postby Shepherd » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:15 am

Penetrating attack negates automatic Protection saves.

Period.

So when you're calculating TO HIT, and "protection" (the power, or armour, etc.) comes into it, that's when penetrating attack comes into effect.

AFTER you hit, and people are making damage saves, reflex saves, etc., the Penetrating Attack "phase" of the attack is passed. It shouldn't make any difference.
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Postby Shepherd » Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:25 am

Hawkmansdaddy wrote:
Penetrating attack forces a Dmg sv, regardless of Dmg bonus. So, that +8(L) penetrating attack requires Minotaur to make a DC 23 Dmg sv.


I'm with you to this point, but I'm 99% sure that the DC on that Dmg save works out to 13, because the Protection value is subtracted when calculating the DC.

See my edited post above, and the linked example in the Official Rules forum.
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Postby Hawkmansdaddy » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:29 am

I'm glad you took the time to get the 'official' answer, Shepherd. Thanks!

It bothered me that the Feat didn't specify whether Protection still applied or not...now we know.

I guess everyone with Protection should go ahead and buy Impervious so they can ignore Penetrating Attack altogether.

As to the Energy Blast +10 vs. Protection +11, ever thought about using Power Attack? You'd only need to trade off one point of AB to get enough damage bonus to 'hurt' this guy, and there's no good reason not to go for the full +5 the feat allows. Combine it with Penetrating Attack and it could take Devilguy down in no time.

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Postby Rickynet » Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:38 pm

ok thanks i have a little more clear the picture, i hope understand right now i didn't find the post with the rules that you refered


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