Attack Powers using diff Attributes

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Attack Powers using diff Attributes

Postby Tagnik » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:31 pm

In DnD 3e, a Wizard uses Int for attacking with Magic (unless its a bolt)
and a Sorcerer uses Charisma.

That got me thinking..
How would someone change the Attribute they use for certain attacks?
The only examples I've seen so far is a Feat and an Extra.

Attack Finesse changes your melee attacks from Str to Dexterity.
Mental extra makes it so the attack And save are Wisdom/Will based

How would you make a Sorcerer uses his magic blast?


I had an idea that when you create your own power, you can also set which attribute sets it off? Lets say I wanted an "Energy Blast" type of power. I would call it "Look of Agony".

I could roll 1d20 + Charisma + BAB and the Damage would still be a Damage Save. Range "Normal"

Now for an Extra I could make it a Will save as well.

does this seem right/wrong to anyone?

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Attribute change

Postby Rivalsan » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:12 pm

I would call it an extra to change what attribute an attack is based off, and another to change what save protects from it - And at that, only from Damage save to Will save.. maybe not even then. I cannot remember off the top of my head how one saves against the mental blast's damage.

I cannot think of a single way to make a reflex save responsible for avoiding damage at its baseline. What way can you damage someone that they can't avoid by tanking it but they can by dancing out of the way?

Attack Finesse lets you use your dex instead of str for just the To Hit bonus, so if you wanted just a To Hit bonus from Will, I'd call that a power stunt or feat probably.. Like an Energy blast thats a physical thing, but psionically aimed. That'd work for me.
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Postby the_masochist » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:43 pm

I'm not sure I like this idea much...

don't get me wrong, the idea was interesting and intriging, but the more I thought about it, the less I wanted all the attributes to be that closely similar...

Strength is to do damage, and strongly leans it that way. Many feats require a certain level of STR, and they all have a general theme, as does DEX and WIS. Hand to Hand is different then ranged combat and there are advantages to doing each, and feats to represent and hon in on that. I wouldn't allow ranged rapid takedown and I wouldn't allow hand to hand pointblank shot, so why allow chrisma based attack bonuses?

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Postby Tagnik » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:00 pm

because in this game, balance is based on GM decision and its not based off actual balancing.

Snare and Energy Blast.. apples and oranges.

I see the attributes as equal.

I'm just trying to reproduce a Sorcerer and a Wizard without using Dex for ranged attacks all the time.

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I see.

Postby Rivalsan » Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:24 pm

Apparently, Masochist, he wasn't actually asking for input. He's just posting to see his own name, 'cause when we responded, he basically went 'PFFFFFT' and ignored us. :) What a nice guy ;)
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Postby the_masochist » Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:14 pm

hey now, no need to be vicious,

Their have been many instances when I like my idea better then others peoples, and I bet the same for you, If he doesn't like what we say, oh well, It's his opinion and not our right to judge his motives

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Postby Tagnik » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:32 pm

Actually, I was looking for more experienced players to Answer the question.

They typically post in other areas of the boards.

No offense, but I don't agree with many of your ideas, Rivalson.

So don't bother replying to my posts anymore, I don't like your attitude. But i'm sure you're a nice person.

But I did like your answer, I just was hoping for some examples of Cha or Int for attacks.

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Postby the_masochist » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:59 pm

well, if you want all the attributes to be as similar as possible, I guess I would require at least a powerstunt to exchange one ability score modifier with another, and personally, I would require it each time you excange one with another. I think Trapster or Dr.Archeville would agree with me on this, but they might say extra.

I could try to contact one of them for you? (note: Dr.Archeville has a tendacy of wearing your costumes... without underware ::shudder::)

(and for the record, I think it is rude for you to say you would rather have "more experienced" players answer, regardless of how honest it is)

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Postby Dr Archeville » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:13 am

*appears in a cloud of brimstone & Febreze*

For M&M, I believe a Feat to allow a character to use their Intelligence (or Wisdom, or Charisma) modifier on melee attack rolls (regular Int/Wis/Cha, not Super, as with Str & Dex) would be fair & balanced. As mentioned, Attack Finesse lets you use Dex for melee attacks, so there is precedent. (And, there's a feat in some D&D supplement that allows folks to use Wis to attack, rather than Str; I sadly cannot at the moment recall the book, but I believe the Feat was called "Intuitive Attack.")

The Mental Extra is an extra b/c it not only changes what you attack with (Wis rather than Dex/Str), but it also changes the save the target must make from a Damage save to a Will save, and makes Force Field and Protection useless. (It allows folks with Mental Protection to shine, though.)

As for Saves -- Kenson himself has said that changing a power's save among Fort, Ref and Will (ex.: changing Dazzle from being a Ref save to a Fort save) is pretty much a null effect, and is not worth any points. (One could argue, though, that Mental Protection -- which protects against all Will save effects -- can skew this.) Changing from Damage to anything else, or anything else to Damage, gets trickier, though, due to the 'degrees of failure' natire of Damage saves.


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Postby Tagnik » Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:49 pm

I'm Rude :)

Well changing the attack is one thing, but what if you changed the attack and the bonus used for damage.

Let's say you have a.... hrm..

a "Mighty" Space Cannon on a ship. The Mighty part might be that it works better if aimed properly. You use your Intelligence roll to attack, to set the coordinates, then when it hits, it hits w/ +int bonus.

Another way to put this is just Magic.. you use Int to attack/cast the spell, then its damage +int, but that would constitute an extra.....

I think I just answered my question....

So a Feat to use a different ability, an extra to add damage from a different ability. Yay. :)

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Postby Anthony » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:00 pm

Or, you can just look at the way 2e handles them, where attack isn't based on any attribute.

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Postby Tagnik » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:08 pm

I guess mybiggest problem with it would be a "Rogue" type character.

He'd have lots of ranks in Charisma, and lets see he melee fights w/ Charisma. He'd bluff for his sneak attacks, and save points by using charisma for both, Skill, attack, and Damage.

Just sounds way to cheap.

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Postby the_masochist » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:10 pm

well thats what suprise attack is for silly! no need for charisma based attacks if your basically trying to find someone off guard!

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Postby Iczer » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:25 pm

Tagnik wrote:Actually, I was looking for more experienced players to Answer the question.

They typically post in other areas of the boards.

No offense, but I don't agree with many of your ideas, Rivalson.

So don't bother replying to my posts anymore, I don't like your attitude. But i'm sure you're a nice person.

But I did like your answer, I just was hoping for some examples of Cha or Int for attacks.


Let me see. Not an attack per-se, but a Wisdom Drain, made subtle, could be tied to charisma, and act like a demoralisation attack.

Attacks that are defined as perhaps dream related, or relating to the dream realm could also be more cha based. Energy blasts that affect dream creatures for example. also whole aspects of mind control may revolve around charisma, justifying it as a 'force of personality' issue, both for attack and effect. (in fact, since mighty is applicable for some weapons, maybe some mental attacks could benefit from 'logical' as an extra, adding Int to the effect.)

Indirect ranged attacks make good candidates for Int based attacks. "By calculating precise angles of relection, factoring the target's speed and vector as well as localised air speed and pressure, i should materialise fire...there!'

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