Outer Space

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
Stule Brown
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Outer Space

Postby Stule Brown » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:26 pm

Hey guys!

What Immunities would you need to survive in Outer Space?

I know it says Pressure and Suffocation, but is that all?

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Kid Carom
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Postby Kid Carom » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:20 pm

Heat, Cold, and Radiation and if you plan to be out there long Starvation.
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Postby Grendal » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:03 am

Kid Carom wrote:Heat, Cold, and Radiation and if you plan to be out there long Starvation.


Space is neither very quick to freeze you, very hot nor highly radioactive. Assuming you have Protection, you probably don't need immunities to those features.

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Postby Rune » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:42 am

Grendal wrote:
Kid Carom wrote:Heat, Cold, and Radiation and if you plan to be out there long Starvation.


Space is neither very quick to freeze you, very hot nor highly radioactive. Assuming you have Protection, you probably don't need immunities to those features.

Sorry, but you are out of your mind, Grendal. :wink:

You most definately need immunity to breathing as well as cold, heat, radiation and starvation, as Kid karom mentioned.

Space will freeze you to death within 40 seconds,[the temperature of the 'surrounding space' is around -140 degrees farenheit], the lack of a protective atmoshere around you means that the unfettered heat and radiation of the sun will roast the side of you that faces the sunlight [and it will blind you if you accidentily look at it, too.], and obviously, there isn't any breathable air there.
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Postby Dirigible » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:54 am

Immunity to gravity might help in a few places

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Postby farik » Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:22 am

When I make a space farer I use

Immunities: gravity, heat, cold, radiation, pressure, suffocation
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Oh, and by the way, I don't use drawbacks in my game, just complications.

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Postby Rune » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:39 am

Gah! I knew I forgot one.... I didn't have my BIFOM.

Pressure is a good one to have, so you don't have all your gut's popping out all over the starscape.

MMmmm, What a view! :shock:
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Whenever somebody tells you about "the five hundred ancient talismans" or "the nine legendary crystals" or whatever, you can be quite confident that Saving the World will require you to go out and find every last one of them.

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Postby Grendal » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:07 am

Rune wrote:
Grendal wrote:
Kid Carom wrote:Heat, Cold, and Radiation and if you plan to be out there long Starvation.


Space is neither very quick to freeze you, very hot nor highly radioactive. Assuming you have Protection, you probably don't need immunities to those features.

Sorry, but you are out of your mind, Grendal. :wink:

You most definately need immunity to breathing as well as cold, heat, radiation and starvation, as Kid karom mentioned.

Space will freeze you to death within 40 seconds,[the temperature of the 'surrounding space' is around -140 degrees farenheit],


Space has no temperature. You will in fact lose heat much more slowly
in space than you will in 40 below temperatures on Earth. Why do you think that people use vacuum flasks (aka thermoses) to keep soup hot?
While you will slowly lose heat as you radiate it away it, Protection is effective against cold damage.

Kid Carom wrote:the lack of a protective atmoshere around you means that the unfettered heat and radiation of the sun will roast the side of you that faces the sunlight [and it will blind you if you accidentily look at it, too.],


While the heat and radiation would do some damage, Protection is effective against that damage and it would do far less damage than a comic book energy weapon.

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Postby Anthony » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:55 am

Space is not particularly hot or cold; vacuum is a good insulator. The black-body temperature of space near earth is about 0C, but that doesn't matter a whole lot. The resistances you need are:

Pressure (given that this exists, Protection is not inherently sealed)
Suffocation
Radiation (there isn't a lot of gamma to worry about, but there's vast quantities of beta radiation and solar protons). If you're not going beyond low orbit, or you aren't spending very long, radiation may not be necessary, but radiation is a serious hazard in space.

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Postby Kid Carom » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:57 am

Grendal wrote:Space has no temperature. You will in fact lose heat much more slowly
in space than you will in 40 below temperatures on Earth. Why do you think that people use vacuum flasks (aka thermoses) to keep soup hot?
While you will slowly lose heat as you radiate it away it, Protection is effective against cold damage.

People use thermoses to keep their soup hot because the walls of the thermos are lousy conductors of heat. In other words, heat cannot readily dissipate out of the thermos (and thus, out of the soup), because the sides insulate it. If the thermos was made of a good heat conductor, then the heat would escape, in spite of the vacuum.

Here is a link from a quick search of N.A.S.A.'s website:

http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/space/teacher ... outer.html

Of particular interest is this line:

"The temperature range found in outer space provides a second major obstacle. The sunlit side of objects in space at Earth's distance from the Sun can climb to over 120 degrees Celsius [240 deg F] while the shaded side can plummet to lower than minus 100 degrees Celsius [-148 deg F]. "

Grendal wrote:While the heat and radiation would do some damage, Protection is effective against that damage and it would do far less damage than a comic book energy weapon.

Since we're speaking in game terms, Protection will only stop attacks, not prolonged atmospheric effects. Thus, a blast of fire will be hot, but you only need to withstand it for 3 seconds or so. Walking through the desert, however, is a prolonged increase in temperature, such that eventually, you will succumb to heat overexposure. Your tough hide or force field will not help you against that.
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Postby Anthony » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:02 pm

Actually, in game terms, Protection stops anything with a damage save, but not effects with a fortitude save.

Realistically, putting mass in the way of radiation stops it, though you need a lot of mass to stop all of it (to get a solar flare down to safe levels, you want the equivalent of about 5' of concrete). Given that, it's reasonable to claim that a radiation attack actually goes vs Fortitude.

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Postby Kid Carom » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:11 pm

Anthony wrote:Actually, in game terms, Protection stops anything with a damage save, but not effects with a fortitude save.

Realistically, putting mass in the way of radiation stops it, though you need a lot of mass to stop all of it (to get a solar flare down to safe levels, you want the equivalent of about 5' of concrete). Given that, it's reasonable to claim that a radiation attack actually goes vs Fortitude.

Agreed, in real life terms, but we're talking comic book physics here! :P

Anyway, along the lines of your Damage vs. Fort save distinction, if you fell in a 40 deg F body of water and got out in 3 seconds, it wouldn't actually hurt you. However, if you swam around in it for too long, then you would likely succumb to hypothermia or even death. In other words, long term exposure changes it from a Damage save to a Fort save.
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Immunities

Postby Rivalsan » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:20 pm

If you're in direct sunlight it can be very hot. Heat.
If you are in shadow, it can be very cold. Cold
If you are in space, it is a vacuum. Pressure
There is no air to breathe. Suffocation.
Space is full of radiation from the sun. Radiation.

Protection going to protect you? Say what?
Space is the second deadliest place we explore. (The most deadly being the deep oceans.)

On the protection Damage vs Fort saves, for a verification of this, read the rules on Immunities. An Immunity to Heat/fire will not make a flame-based attack useless against you - Though it may change it from lethal to stun damage.
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Postby Grendal » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:53 pm

Kid Carom wrote:
Grendal wrote:Space has no temperature. You will in fact lose heat much more slowly
in space than you will in 40 below temperatures on Earth. Why do you think that people use vacuum flasks (aka thermoses) to keep soup hot?
While you will slowly lose heat as you radiate it away it, Protection is effective against cold damage.

People use thermoses to keep their soup hot because the walls of the thermos are lousy conductors of heat. In other words, heat cannot readily dissipate out of the thermos (and thus, out of the soup), because the sides insulate it.


So you are saying that the vacuum is purely ornamental? That it serves no function? That the thermos would work just as well if it was just out of solid material? So why don't they make it that way?

Grendal wrote:If the thermos was made of a good heat conductor, then the heat would escape, in spite of the vacuum.


Now tell me. What conducts the heat away from a surface in a vacuum?
Don't you realise that the only way that the sun side can get that hot is precisely because vacuum is such a good heat insulator?

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Postby Grendal » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:58 pm

Anthony wrote:Actually, in game terms, Protection stops anything with a damage save, but not effects with a fortitude save.

Realistically, putting mass in the way of radiation stops it, though you need a lot of mass to stop all of it (to get a solar flare down to safe levels, you want the equivalent of about 5' of concrete). Given that, it's reasonable to claim that a radiation attack actually goes vs Fortitude.


You make a compelling point. Of course that means if you have a good enough fortitude save that you can resist the effect with a Take 10, that would be sufficient.


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