Reflex Saves, Armour & Energy Blasts, Oh my...

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Reflex Saves, Armour & Energy Blasts, Oh my...

Postby BlackDragon1200 » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:26 pm

If I have a PL 10 character with

Dodge
Evasion
Dex 18
Amazing save (Reflex) +6
Body Armour (Armour +4)

and he gets hit with a +10L Energy Blast you would reduce the energy blast by 4 (to +6L) before rolling your Reflex save. Right?

But what if the energy blast had the Penetrating Attack extra? Would you then only get to roll your Reflex save against the +10L damage?
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Postby Evendur » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:45 pm

Penetrating Attack reduces the saving bonus by two, you just make a save with a slightly lower damage save bonus.
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Postby BlackDragon1200 » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:49 pm

Evendur wrote:Penetrating Attack reduces the saving bonus by two, you just make a save with a slightly lower damage save bonus.

Not in the errata. Now it makes the character save as it their Protection was Amazing Save (Damage) instead.
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Postby Evendur » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:09 pm

My bad, forgot to check for errata on my pdf version

It reduces protection by 2 for every time you take it
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Postby Tagnik » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:36 pm

It doesn't reduce anything..

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Postby Evendur » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:53 pm

my mistake again, I completely forgot, Pen. Atk. elminates the protection provided by unimpervious armor.
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Penetrating Attack

Postby Rivalsan » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:30 am

Um. No. No it doesn't. A 2 pt feat does not elimate ten ranks of Protection.

It just removes Protection's ability to let you ignore entirely any damage effect with a PL lower than the Protection's rank. You still get the benefit to the damage save.

Stacking Protection and Reflex save based dodges seems somehow odd to me..

The entire idea of avoiding damage by reflex save is that you aren't really THERE any more.. While Protection's is 'Me tuff. You hit me? Hah! Me no feel that!'

Ignoring the stats and rules.. how are those two going to stack?
What I would do with reflex based damage saves is this:
Roll the save w/o paying attention to Protection. If its successful, then great, no damage. If not...
The character takes a hit.. Only apply the protection's ranks to determine how serious - To move from stunned to just hit, for instance.

Hey, you can't have your cake and eat it too, sparky.
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Re: Penetrating Attack

Postby Rune » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:36 pm

Rivalsan wrote:Ignoring the stats and rules.. how are those two going to stack?

The answer is, they don't. You can only use one, either the Reflex save in place of the damage save via Evasion, or take the hit with protection/damage save, pick one.

If, however, you are caught in an area effect, you can make a normal reflex save for half, and then apply this half against your protection.
Rivalsan wrote:The entire idea of avoiding damage by reflex save [via evasion] is that you aren't really THERE any more.. While Protection's is 'Me tuff. You hit me? Hah! Me no feel that!

Exactly.
You cannot use evasion to set your save, then apply the damage saves' protection to that damage to reduce it...It is always one or the other, period.
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Great

Postby Rivalsan » Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:37 pm

While I entirely agree with everything you said there in agreeing with me, Rune.. Is there anything in The Book to back it up?
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Re: Great

Postby BlackDragon1200 » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:45 pm

Rivalsan wrote:While I entirely agree with everything you said there in agreeing with me, Rune.. Is there anything in The Book to back it up?


That's the problem, there isn't. According to the rules, Evasion lets you replace your Damage save with your Reflex save when you're not flat footed, etc. Now it's quite obvious that Amazing Save (Damage) won't help in that situation as you're no longer rolling a Damage save but Protection is deducted from the Damage DC before the save is made (Damage or Reflex), so according to the rules it should work with Evasion.

I guess you could think of it as if you are unable to evade the entire attack, a portion of it is still deflected off your Armor anyway.
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Re: Great

Postby Rune » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:41 pm

BlackDragon1200 wrote:
Rivalsan wrote:While I entirely agree with everything you said there in agreeing with me, Rune.. Is there anything in The Book to back it up?


That's the problem, there isn't. According to the rules, Evasion lets you replace your Damage save with your Reflex save when you're not flat footed, etc. Now it's quite obvious that Amazing Save (Damage) won't help in that situation as you're no longer rolling a Damage save but Protection is deducted from the Damage DC before the save is made (Damage or Reflex), so according to the rules it should work with Evasion.

I guess you could think of it as if you are unable to evade the entire attack, a portion of it is still deflected off your Armor anyway.

No.

This "before the damage save" languge is misleading, it is as the damage hits, you either dodge it, or are hit by it. If you dodge it,then you were never hit at all, and the Protection could not help. Any damage resulting from an evasion based damage-substituted-save is about avoiding the majority of the damage, rather than resisting it.

If you use Evasion, then the entire save is made by reflex, if you pick Damage save, then you may use that, along with any Protection you have on your damage save.

Technically, Protection is just an extra on Amazing Save; Damage, and you can't use both saves at once.. Let me look in the darn book....

Evasion; Let's you substitute your reflex save in place of the damage save you can normally make

AS: Damage; Adds to your Damage save directly, up to your power level

Protection; Works like AS: Damage mathematically the same, but the language is tricky, it lowers incoming damage by one less than your Protection rank. IE, if I have protection 9, then I can ignore rank 8 or lower damage tests. I always told my players to ignore the reversal bit, and work Protection the way it does in M&M 2nd ed. That is, It adds to your 'damage' save, and any incoming damage equal to it [or less] can be considered an automatic success.

Anyhow, there is NO place in the book that says you can combine two saves into one, ever. Just wait a bit, when other regular posters see this, they'll agree with me. Your player needs to buy a higher reflex save if he wants to avoid damage better, and then he can consider his protection a backup for when he is flatfooted, surprised, or area effected.

By the way, I'm not trying to be rude or condescending, I know that printed words don't convey my 'expression' at all. I am enjoying the conversation immensely, and I hope I am being helpful. :)
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Postby BlackDragon1200 » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:46 pm

Just found this in the Official Rules Questions forum:

Steve Kenson wrote:All right, here's one for the FAQ (and forgive me if I'm "flip-flopping" on this one):

What Evasion does is substitute your Reflex save bonus for your Damage save bonus under certain conditions. Under those conditions, your Reflex save bonus is treated exacty the same as your Damage save bonus. This includes power bonuses for stacking purposes.

So, all powers that add to your Reflex saves, like Amazing Save (Reflexes) and Super-Speed, count as Damage save bonuses. So, if you have (for example), Amazing Save (Reflex) +8 and Protection +8 and you're PL10, you get a +10 (total) bonus on your Evasion-based save.

For a normal Damage save, the limits are:

Con bonus + feat bonus (Toughness) + PL in power bonuses

For an Evasion Damage save, the limits are:

Dex bonus + feat bonus (Lightning Reflexes) + PL in power bonuses.

Note that Toughness does NOT grant a bonus on Evasion damage saves, but powers like Amazing Save (Damage) and Protection DO.

I think the above is fair, and hope it's sufficiently clear. My apologies for any previous misunderstandings or confusion.

You can find it at

http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/ph ... ex+evasion
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Postby Rune » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:29 am

BlackDragon1200 wrote:Just found this in the Official Rules Questions forum:

Steve Kenson wrote:All right, here's one for the FAQ (and forgive me if I'm "flip-flopping" on this one):

This isn't just a flip flop, it's an all out reversal of the earlier established paradigm.
BlackDragon1200 wrote:
Steve Kenson wrote:What Evasion does is substitute your Reflex save bonus for your Damage save bonus under certain conditions. Under those conditions, your Reflex save bonus is treated exacty the same as your Damage save bonus. This includes power bonuses for stacking purposes.

So, all powers that add to your Reflex saves, like Amazing Save (Reflexes) and Super-Speed, count as Damage save bonuses. So, if you have (for example), Amazing Save (Reflex) +8 and Protection +8 and you're PL10, you get a +10 (total) bonus on your Evasion-based save.

For a normal Damage save, the limits are:

Con bonus + feat bonus (Toughness) + PL in power bonuses

For an Evasion Damage save, the limits are:

Dex bonus + feat bonus (Lightning Reflexes) + PL in power bonuses.

Note that Toughness does NOT grant a bonus on Evasion damage saves, but powers like Amazing Save (Damage) and Protection DO.

I think the above is fair, and hope it's sufficiently clear. My apologies for any previous misunderstandings or confusion.

You can find it at

http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/ph ... ex+evasion

Well, I think this is pretty worthless, but it's his game, I guess.

From a points persective I understand what he's doing, he is trying to allow players who diversify thier characters for a concept to not be 'gimped' for that choice, but I say that should be up to the player and GM, we all knew what we were getting into with the old ruling anyhow.

I think this needs to be bolded and pointed out to all the older players, I bet I'm not the only guy who will be surprised at this.

In any event, after I reviewed your toon, according to Steves' new [and in my opinion silly] ruling on this, then yes, you would reduce the damage by protection first, then apply the remaining damage to your reflex save (somehow managing to be both hit and not hit at the same time).

[edit]
BlackDragon1200 wrote:But what if the energy blast had the Penetrating Attack extra? Would you then only get to roll your Reflex save against the +10L damage?

No, the penetrating extra/feat/whatever-the-hell-it-is-now merely causes Protection (like that found in Armor or Force Field, as i said, Protection is just an extra on AS: Damage) to revert to an AS: Damage value, instead, so you would still have a +10 Power Bonus to your roll.
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Whenever somebody tells you about "the five hundred ancient talismans" or "the nine legendary crystals" or whatever, you can be quite confident that Saving the World will require you to go out and find every last one of them.

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Postby farik » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:42 pm

I assume this whole controversy is an example of why protection has been replaced with the impervious extra and traditional evasion has been replaced with defensive roll in 2e.

My advice as a GM would be to arbitrate this according to the specific special effects involved rather than u force Steve's "official" answer into the game it's clear that this is an example of a time when even the games designer was unsure of which way to lean.
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Postby Rune » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:47 pm

farik wrote:I assume this whole controversy is an example of why protection has been replaced with the impervious extra and traditional evasion has been replaced with defensive roll in 2e.

My advice as a GM would be to arbitrate this according to the specific special effects involved rather than u force Steve's "official" answer into the game it's clear that this is an example of a time when even the games designer was unsure of which way to lean.

No doubt. Preach on, Brother! 8)

[I think I'll just leave things as they were before, until 2nd ed. comes out.]
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Zelda's Axiom

Whenever somebody tells you about "the five hundred ancient talismans" or "the nine legendary crystals" or whatever, you can be quite confident that Saving the World will require you to go out and find every last one of them.


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