Sorcerous Ghost

The place to discuss using and abusing the first edition Mutants & Masterminds rules. Rules questions, rules interpretations, house rules, and more rules.
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Tagnik
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Sorcerous Ghost

Post by Tagnik » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:49 am

I'm starting a campaign, and my old DM from DnD is going to play.

This is the first Time I will have game mastered anything. So he's going to help out, but he's also a bit of a trouble maker.

Anyways

He wants to make a "Sorcerous Ghost"

a Ghost who casts magic spells. How could this be done and how could I counteract him if I needed?

So far his only attack is going to be Drain (Dex, he wanted Con I said No.)

He will have Sorcery and Incorporeal. I'm guessing he's going to have to put Ghost Touch on Sorcery, and he's dropping the Divination category ( I don't allow it in my campaign anyways). He wanted to add the immunities too because, well, ghosts don't age anymore and don't suffocate.

He set his Str at 0 and Con at 0. Now he can't be hit by drain attacks. He said that Kinetic Energy can hit him while incorporeal.

Any help with this? How I should handle it? and does a ghost HAVE to have Str 0?

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Re: Sorcerous Ghost

Post by Patriarch » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:16 am

Tagnik wrote:I'm starting a campaign, and my old DM from DnD is going to play.

This is the first Time I will have game mastered anything. So he's going to help out, but he's also a bit of a trouble maker.
Good luck! Hope you enjoy it.
Tagnik wrote:Anyways

He wants to make a "Sorcerous Ghost"

a Ghost who casts magic spells. How could this be done and how could I counteract him if I needed?
Well, every incorporeal being has to pick one type of damage that affects them, plus anything with the Ghost Touch can affect them, and other incorporeal things can affect them.
Tagnik wrote:So far his only attack is going to be Drain (Dex, he wanted Con I said No.)
Why not Con?
Tagnik wrote:He will have Sorcery and Incorporeal. I'm guessing he's going to have to put Ghost Touch on Sorcery, and he's dropping the Divination category ( I don't allow it in my campaign anyways). He wanted to add the immunities too because, well, ghosts don't age anymore and don't suffocate.
I would actually require him to put Ghost Touch on any spell that he wanted to use while incorporeal. Not doing so would be a balance issue in my opinion.

I would charge him an extra for each of those, unless he wanted to remain within the Power Stunt rules that say the stunt can not cost more than the base power, which would reduce the ranks of the spell (like Mental Blast and Healing). So if he has 10 ranks of Sorcery, that means that each spell is built with 20pp. So a Telekinesis spell, with Ghost Touch, would be 3pp/rank, so he could have 6 ranks of it.
Tagnik wrote:He set his Str at 0 and Con at 0. Now he can't be hit by drain attacks. He said that Kinetic Energy can hit him while incorporeal.

Any help with this? How I should handle it? and does a ghost HAVE to have Str 0?
I would not allow a 0 Str and Con. PCs don't get to be constructs. And he still has a virtual strength, because he can interact with other incorporeal things. Kinetic energy is a bad choice for a incorporeal vulnerability, since any moving object has kinetic energy. You could rule that a punch is kinetic energy.

And why would be be immune to drains?
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Post by Tagnik » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:28 am

0 Con = Immune to Drains :(

So when he uses his Sorcery power he would need like.. say.. 5 extras of all Ghost touch for him to use 1 power from each category?

Instead of just having the Ghost Touch extra on all of Sorcery?

btw, he has hte permanancy flaw in his Incorporeal

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Post by Amnarii » Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:01 pm

I had been thinking of creating a construct based character, who was a spirit type, with no strength or constitution scores. But based on Patriarch's response, "PCs don't get to be constructs." I went and reread that whole section... and while a character (PC or NPC) can be a construct, they have different rules - they lose the immunities unless they buy the super feats, and they have a constitution and are in all ways just like a normal character.


So, ether your former DM is trying to pull a fast one on you and get a lot of free power he shouldn't get, or like me he simply didn't read it well enough to know. Either way, construct or not, if the PC has a 0 constitution, then it is dead - so make him buy con or create a new PC.

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No con?

Post by Rivalsan » Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:16 pm

If he has a con of 0 that means anyone who hits him with a Ghost Touch'ed CON drain kills him instantly. Point that out and he may get more reasonable.

Aside from everything else.. Yea, I'd probably rule that he'd have to apply Ghost touch to any SPELL he casts, not just as an extra on the Sorcery power itself. So at PL 10 the highest spell category he could affect the real world with would be PL 6.

Which is entirely reasonable for a character that will be practically untouchable and very versitile.

Honestly though? I'd put the 'Twinkie' stamp on this idea and ask him for possibly something else.

A zero dex means his defense though starts at -5? And, IIRC, he can't move, basically.. So I'd never allow that zeroed out.. Now if he wants to lower dex and con to say, 7 or 8, kool beans. - Again tho, make sure he realizes anyone with Ghost Touch is gonna rip him to shreds.. And all someone has to do is Extra Effort to get an extra.. Blammo, The Evil Doctor Lightningbolt finds the exact frequency of electrical blast he needs to shoot Ghostboy with to affect his etherial body. One dead hero.
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Post by Iczer » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:20 pm

if i remember correctly, a 0 con = dead.

In addition, that's -5 to any con saves. I'm sure an enterprising young GM can pretty much come up with a method to make that particular bugbear function (a lightning gun with ghost touch and a fort save instead of a damage save)

Also, you could try making him solid (if he has permanent but not innate incorporeal, then you can negate his power (even better if you trade the will save for a fort save)).

heck. kinetic energy is a bit tricky to define in this instance. If he can be harmed by kinetic energy then he's capable of being hit, shot stabbed etc... I'd rule he could still walk through walls though. you might consider it flawed in that respect (everybody has the ability to inflict kinetic damage). that said, his damage save is -5 (based off 0 con) before any other modifiers. My kid sister could punch him out.

He can have str 0 if he wants. He is stuffed when it comes to climbing and swimming though. IIRC though, a zero strenght means you collapse. but check it out.

Other than that it is a reasonable power concept, but it could be problematic. I have a player that is fond of making ambush monkeys and it's never pleasant to watch him play.

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Re: Sorcerous Ghost

Post by Vortex » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:47 am

Patriarch wrote:
Tagnik wrote:How could this be done and how could I counteract him if I needed?
Well, every incorporeal being has to pick one type of damage that affects them, plus anything with the Ghost Touch can affect them, and other incorporeal things can affect them.
Not to forget mental powers & effects.

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Post by Dread Lord » Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:06 pm

A construct dosn't have a 0 CON. Rather it (or he in this case, whatever) just dosn't have one. He would be immune to all effects that require a Fort save unless the effect would also affect objects. That's the simple way of defining it. Of course it's not quite that simple. He will have to buy immunity to all effects that require a Fort save. And his default Fort save is +0, same as CON 10. Since, functionaly anyway, no CON is the same as CON 10 he gets no pp reward.

To avoid all manner of confusion just have him add Immunity as an extra to Incorporeal then include all the immunities the two of you can agree on concerning his ghostly state. Leave his CON at 10 (since there's no real benifit in this system to not having a CON score really) and define this all as an aspect of his unliving state.

The STR 0 thing is tricky though. Anything with a STR of 0 cannot apply any force to anything. Being Incorporeal anyway he won't generaly be loseing out on alot since he can't touch anything anyway. On the other hand a permantaly Incorporeal being with a STR of 10 can use extra effort to give himself Ghost Touch to move something, this guy could use extra effort the same way but couldn't move so much as a grain of sand. Further if he is ever confronted with an Incorporeal being who has even a STR of 2 this being could grab him by his ghostly boot and haul him off to anywhere, for example. Further if he were somehow made solid he wouldn't have the power to so much as lift his head off the ground. If he willing to go accept this for the 10 pp reward then sure let him. But make sure he understands that if someone with Ghost Touch can get a hold of him he has no means of fighting back. Further he will need to have some movement power such as Flight since he can't walk on his own.

Also he'll need to buy Ghost touch for his attack spells at least. As well as defencive spells if he ever plans on useing them to aid a friend. Same with healing magics or animation or alteration.
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Post by Tagnik » Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:41 pm

He has Force Field as a spell for his protection. I was going to treat his Con as a 0 Con, meaning he gets -5 on Damage Saves.

Extra Effort by a villain would slaughter him.. Instant Ghost Touch as someone posted earlier. He put all his skills into hiding and moving silently as well. his only attack is a Dex Drain. He has the extras for Ghost touch, but I've only applied it once to "Sorcery".

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