Is paralysis considered an attack power?

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JonathanC
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Is paralysis considered an attack power?

Post by JonathanC » Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:55 pm

Or to be more specific, could I take Paralysis as a power stunt on an Energy Blast (electricity) power? It makes sense in theory, but I'm wondering if it would have to be an extra...the problem with it being an extra is that (IMO) it becomes too cheesy, as the target has to resist both effects every time you use it. Used as a stunt, it's one or the other.
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Post by Dread Lord » Sat Jun 11, 2005 6:40 pm

That's not quite how it works. If you want to have the power do both damage and paralisis (I know you don't, just making a point) then you'd have to make the second not only an extra but also add Triggered as an extra as well.

But to answer your ian question, yes you can take it as a stunt.
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Post by Grim Luck » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:21 pm

Dread Lord - I disagree on the triggered extra. I know that a lot of people run it like that, but the POINT of having an extra of a power (Example: Weapon & Energy Field) is that they can both go off on the same time where as a power stunt can only be one or the other.

Of course each game master is different but even if JonathanC's game master agrees with you, based on JonathanC's concept (as I grok it) making a power linked with the flaw only when linked would probably work for him, and the extra and flaw would balance out costwise.

And Yes, JohnathanC, both attacks WOULD be rolled at the same time - and its not cheezy. Dual attack effects are scattered throughout comics. They are typically more powerful, and you'd want to have your game master's approval, but they exist.

As a game master in my games, a villain I created had Strike, Corrosion with the extra allowing it to do damage to living matter, and energy field at the same time. That's three damage saves on one hit.
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Post by Paragon » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Grim Luck wrote:Dread Lord - I disagree on the triggered extra. I know that a lot of people run it like that, but the POINT of having an extra of a power (Example: Weapon & Energy Field) is that they can both go off on the same time where as a power stunt can only be one or the other.
Disagree if you want, but Steve's said that's how it works. Of course if you always use them together you end up being able to just flaw the Triggered Extra back out so the cost is the same, but its still a necessity.


And Yes, JohnathanC, both attacks WOULD be rolled at the same time - and its not cheezy. Dual attack effects are scattered throughout comics. They are typically more powerful, and you'd want to have your game master's approval, but they exist.
While they are sometimes a necessity, mechanically they _are_ somewhat cheesy, just because forcing two saves, especially from different save types, is a significant increase in power not reflected by PL limits.
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Post by Grim Luck » Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:45 pm

If an extra can't be used at the same time a power is without the trigger, then there would be little difference between an extra and a power stunt. You'd also end up with odd mixes such as a character with Super Strength with an extra of Strike wouldn't be able to combo those powers without the 'linked' extra - if the rules were to remain consistent. This seems thematically incorrect, regardless of the rules interpretation provided by Steve. Its likely this is something that they looked at in 2e, but for now our group will choose to ignore Steve's explanation.

Still, I recognize that I may be in the minority on this one, hence my reply included a 'what to do if your GM does require the linked power'.

Regarding the cheeze - its a matter of theme, and taste. In many games, it would be completely inappropriate. But in ours, the occasional villain with something like this isn't that cheezy at all.
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Post by Paragon » Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:22 pm

Grim Luck wrote:If an extra can't be used at the same time a power is without the trigger, then there would be little difference between an extra and a power stunt. You'd also end up with odd mixes such as a character with
With attack powers, there essentially isn't. The only reason you see, say, Control powers bought as extras off attacks is because the rules simply don't standardly permit you to slide by with them as stunts. In other ways there's no meaningful difference (though some controls are sustained which allows you to keep running them while using an Attack power.

Super Strength with an extra of Strike wouldn't be able to combo those powers without the 'linked' extra - if the rules were to remain consistent.
Super-Strength isn't an attack power, and Strike stacks with it; that's a big difference than this case

This seems thematically incorrect, regardless of the rules interpretation provided by Steve. Its likely this is something that they looked at in 2e, but for now our group will choose to ignore Steve's explanation.
That's your choice; just don't tell others what you're doing is the way the rules are supposed to work, because the designer has indicated to the contrary.

Regarding the cheeze - its a matter of theme, and taste. In many games, it would be completely inappropriate. But in ours, the occasional villain with something like this isn't that cheezy at all.
There are times its appropriate; that doesn't mean it isn't somewhat unbalanced (and the more such powers you have connected the more unbalanced it is).
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Post by Dread Lord » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:57 pm

To the question as to why someone would take an additional attack power as an extra rather than a powerstunt, the obvious reason would be in the case of multiple attacks in a round, such as Rapid Shot, in which case one attack could be an Energy Blast and the next a Paralysis attack. If one is a power stunt rather than an extra this couldnt be done. Also as an extra Extra Effort could be used to utilize Triggered for a round to tie them together.

Unless you build your character with simular attack routines in mind it is generaly accepted to buy secondary attack powers as powerstunts.
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Post by JonathanC » Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:39 pm

Dread Lord wrote:To the question as to why someone would take an additional attack power as an extra rather than a powerstunt, the obvious reason would be in the case of multiple attacks in a round, such as Rapid Shot, in which case one attack could be an Energy Blast and the next a Paralysis attack. If one is a power stunt rather than an extra this couldnt be done. Also as an extra Extra Effort could be used to utilize Triggered for a round to tie them together.

Unless you build your character with simular attack routines in mind it is generaly accepted to buy secondary attack powers as powerstunts.
Actually, if one had multiple attacks, I don't see why you couldn't use a power with the first attack, and the stunt as a second attack. They're separate attacks, just being used in the same round. And there's no rule saying that you can't use a stunt in the same round, as far as I know.
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Post by ronalmb » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:30 am

I'm puzzled by how exactly I should build a 2 attack effect power. Do I need linked/Triggered? Is just an extra enough? There seems to be 2 different views. I don't mean to add to this debate, but I got this answer yesterday:
ronalmb wrote:

What is the correct cost of this kind of effect? I want to make sure my villains are purchased correctly.

Example Power:

Concussive Orbs
Energy Blast and Stun, both affects always occur at same time

I assumed the cost of the power would be Base 1 + 1 for Energy Blast and 1 for Stun (as an extra) for a total of 3pp/rank.


Steve Kenson wrote:
You assume correctly.
I had also asked about the relevance of triggered/linked to this build, but since there was no answer, I *assume* they were irrelevant to the power. I also *assume* that this addresses the paralysis + damage power design of the poster.... of course these are assumptions...

I don't know if this contributes, or makes things worse.

Guess I'm kind a meddling bystander heroes always dread, eh?

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Post by mgg » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:35 am

JonathanC wrote: Actually, if one had multiple attacks, I don't see why you couldn't use a power with the first attack, and the stunt as a second attack. They're separate attacks, just being used in the same round. And there's no rule saying that you can't use a stunt in the same round, as far as I know.
The rules under secondary effects in the book say exactly that. You can't use a secondary effect during the same round.

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Post by mgg » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:15 am

ronalmb wrote:I'm puzzled by how exactly I should build a 2 attack effect power. Do I need linked/Triggered? Is just an extra enough? There seems to be 2 different views. I don't mean to add to this debate, but I got this answer yesterday:
ronalmb wrote:

What is the correct cost of this kind of effect? I want to make sure my villains are purchased correctly.

Example Power:

Concussive Orbs
Energy Blast and Stun, both affects always occur at same time

I assumed the cost of the power would be Base 1 + 1 for Energy Blast and 1 for Stun (as an extra) for a total of 3pp/rank.


Steve Kenson wrote:
You assume correctly.
I had also asked about the relevance of triggered/linked to this build, but since there was no answer, I *assume* they were irrelevant to the power. I also *assume* that this addresses the paralysis + damage power design of the poster.... of course these are assumptions...

I don't know if this contributes, or makes things worse.

Guess I'm kind a meddling bystander heroes always dread, eh?
If both effects must be used at the same time, then you buy them as extras. It is really extra triggered + flaw only when triggered, but that is too much text to bother writing.

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Post by ronalmb » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:19 am

Hmm... yeah that is a lot of text to bother with...

makes me wonder if there isn't some kind of name/category that could possibly be created for these kinds of 0-sum extras... (or would that technically be 1-sum extras)

Something like:

Energy Blast (Integrated: Paralsyis) 3pp/rank

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Post by Dragonspar » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:39 am

I could be wrong, but its my understanding that they have that.
Its called Laced, and I think its in GGtG. I recall reading an official rule question about it that said what it did.

EDIT- Here it is:
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Post by the_masochist » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:03 pm

call it off topic or just stupid, but for the dnd geeks out their with me, I always thought it would be funny to make take 1 rank of energy blast with the trigger extra (activates when someone successfully saves against this power) to effectivly have magic missle :P

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Post by solidcobra » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:18 am

It seems to lack balance, that's all. what keeps a character from creating a gun that fires bullets that create massive muscle spasms as well as messing up their cerebrum? that's 3 PP/rank, and i'd like three saves. one damage, one will and one fort.
Sorta overpowered, IMO.

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