Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Discuss the second edition rules of the World's Greatest Superhero Roleplaying Game. Check here before posting in the Official Rules Forum, someone might just know the answer already!
User avatar
eddieisbored
Hireling
Hireling
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby eddieisbored » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:21 pm

Hello, I was wondering if anyone would be able clarify when to apply the power feat Innate and the flaw Permanent onto a power in a 2nd edition game, whether that be individually or together. To help you understand my perspective I'll provide a summary of the mechanics behind Innate and Permanent followed by an example of where my confusion is coming from.

The description for Innate states that powers such as Boost, Drain or Nullify cannot affect an innate trait such as an elephant's size or that of a ghost's incorporeal nature.

Permanent's description says that powers with this flaw cannot be turned off unless Nullify or another outside force affects a creature. Additionally this flaw prevents any improvements to the power using extra effort.

Looking at the stats for a Hawk on page 231, I see that it has Shrinking 8 with the Innate and Permanent states. I agree with this because the size of a hawk will always be tiny... because well, it's a hawk.

The Hawk also has Flight 2, however, this power is not innate nor permanent. Hawks have wings, it's a part of their genetic make up, and that is why I would argue that Flight 2 for the Hawk is innate. I would also argue that Flight 2 for the Hawk is permanent. A Hawk will always be able to fly unless of course an outside force, such as tying the wings together, physical damage or clipping the feathers, prevents it from flying.

That said, I would definitely appreciate if someone can help me understand why Shrinking for the Hawk is Innate and Permanent but Flight, and additionally its Super-Senses, are not.

Thanks for your time!

User avatar
kenseido
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 21184
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:57 am
Location: Kyle, Texas
Contact:

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby kenseido » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:40 pm

Permanent implies the power does not take an action on the part of the possessor of the power, not the case of the hawk. The hawk needs to take an action to fly. If a hawk's flight was permanent, when it got knocked out, it would stay up in the air.

Innate means can't be "supressed" by outside sources. So by your own definition, it doesn't apply here. You can't supress the hawk's size, but you can supress it's flight.

Now innate doesn't mean you can't change their size at all. You can use Growth against a hawk, you just can't Drain their "shrinking" power. You could potential Drain their flight power, with the right descriptor.
-----------------------------
Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters

cochramd
Groupie
Groupie
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:20 am

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby cochramd » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:20 am

kenseido wrote:Now innate doesn't mean you can't change their size at all. You can use Growth against a hawk, you just can't Drain their "shrinking" power. You could potential Drain their flight power, with the right descriptor.

I'd rather say that the hawk has a Power Loss flaw. Grounding the hawk with a Wind power is countering it, not draining it.

User avatar
kenseido
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 21184
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:57 am
Location: Kyle, Texas
Contact:

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby kenseido » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:50 am

Technically, Winged is a Power Loss Drawback on Flight, so yes.

And as I said, the right descriptor would be necessary to Drain a hawk's flight.
-----------------------------
Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters

cochramd
Groupie
Groupie
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:20 am

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby cochramd » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:56 am

Draining is different from a countering. A countering is far more analogous to a concentration duration nullification.

Woah. Two words ending in 'ration' in a row, inside a string of 3 words ending in 'ation'.

User avatar
kenseido
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 21184
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:57 am
Location: Kyle, Texas
Contact:

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby kenseido » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:00 pm

Well I don't really think of Countering as a Nullify, though Nullify can be used to Counter.

Using Air Control to counter an hawk's flight isn't a Nullify. Air Control wouldn't work on everyone's flight power. At least that's the way I see it.
-----------------------------
Kenseido's Menagerie of Characters

User avatar
eddieisbored
Hireling
Hireling
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby eddieisbored » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:51 pm

Thank you for clearing that up kenseido.

And cochramd, that was the most interesting string of words, that had to be used in the sentence to make sense, that I've read in a while.

User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby FuzzyBoots » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:03 am

Another example which came up in 2E (and featured in an ORQ) involved Jack-a-Knives and Silver Scream of Freedom City. Both have Permanent Insubstantial, but Jack-a-Knives has it as Innate because he simply has no substance to him whereas Silver Scream is your classic ghost who's "shifted off into another dimension" or somesuch, so it is possible to do something like force her to be tangible (and, of course, either can be affected by Affects Insubstantial, although some have argued here that it's a feat that needs a descriptor so that it's different trying to take a swipe at a ghost versus an astral spirit versus someone using a vibratory suit).

User avatar
eddieisbored
Hireling
Hireling
Posts: 159
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Re: Innate and Permanent - When to apply?

Postby eddieisbored » Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:21 pm

Ah, thanks for the article FuzzyBoots. Now I know to check for the following conditions.

If the power is always active, regardless of conscious effort, then it is permanent.
If the permanent power cannot be deactivated then it is also innate.


Return to “Mutants & Masterminds Rules (Second Edition)”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests