Summon in an array

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XLS
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Summon in an array

Postby XLS » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:34 pm

Hi all:

Typically, when you have an array you don't have access to a power if you're using another. Hence, if I had a wizard who had 3 powers in an array-- say, blast, flight, and force field-- when when using force field, he couldn't also fly. And when flying, he couldn't use a blast, and so on.

I'm double-checking on the Summon power. If I had the Summon power in an array, summon a few minions, and then switch to another power in the array (say, blast), do my minions disappear? If so, is there a way to work around this-- say, by changing the duration of the power, or something else?

Thanks for your help!

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby kenseido » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:52 pm

As far as I remember, even Continuous powers aren't maintained when you switch an array to another power.
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Re: Summon in an array

Postby XLS » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:11 pm

kenseido wrote:As far as I remember, even Continuous powers aren't maintained when you switch an array to another power.
OK. So there's no real work-around for a Summon in an array-- if it's there and you switch powers, you lose the minions?

That's fine-- keeping the minions in an array sort of defeats the purpose of the array (you effectively get to have two powers for the price of one)-- but I wanted to be sure.

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby UnkindMirror » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:28 am

Relevant ORQ:
Steve Kenson wrote:
Stone Cold Gargoyle wrote:If I take Summon [Minion] as an AP (default duration Sustained), then the summoned minion goes bye-bye when I swap to a different AP, right? (Like, say, Mystic Blast). Does the minion stick around if I upped the duration to Continuous?

Yes, if you swap out a Sustained Summon effect in an array, the summoned minion(s) go away.

Whether or not this is the case with a Continuous Summon effect is somewhat open to interpretation: technically, the minions should still vanish, or at least the character should be unable to command them, without access to the original Summon power. However, some GMs may choose to overlook this for certain Summon powers and descriptors, in particular NPC summoners who use the power solely to call up some more minions for the heroes to fight.


Personally, there's no way I'd allow it. Summon is useful enough without effectively getting the benefits for free. And I'm sort of puzzled by the last part of Steve's answer, seeing how NPCs don't care about point costs. So they could easily have Summon outside the array and nobody would care.

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby RavnosAntitribu » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:58 pm

There is a workaround i think, the Independent extra from UP, that makes the power, duh, independent from the user.

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby kenseido » Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:15 pm

Technically, Independent is just Continuous + Fades, which on it's face would not override. So it would have to be a GM decision to allow it.
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Re: Summon in an array

Postby FuzzyBoots » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:48 am

kenseido wrote:Technically, Independent is just Continuous + Fades, which on it's face would not override. So it would have to be a GM decision to allow it.

Except that Independent was essentially put into place to allow things like deploying smoke bombs and not having them go away when you switch to your grappling line.

Independent would allow the summons to stay around. It would also remove the ability for the summoner to dismiss their creation, at which point you hope that no one on the enemy side has a good Diplomacy bonus ("What? He's not giving you dental in your benefits plan? I got an opening on my side if you don't mind leaving that skinflint, hey?")

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby kenseido » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:11 am

If that is how the GM wants to interpret it, that's fine. My point was that Independent is Continuous (requiring no action to maintain, doesn't drop if the character is stunned or knocked unconscious) plus Fades.

Since Steve thinks Continuous powers probably should drop when an array is changed, it would technically apply here. GMs always have veto power.
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Re: Summon in an array

Postby UnkindMirror » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:13 am

The description of Independent specifically calls that out, though:
"An Independent Alternate Power continues to function even when the Array is switched to a different configuration."

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby kenseido » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:19 am

Missed that line. Thanks for the correction.
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Re: Summon in an array

Postby XLS » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:02 pm

It doesn't seem to me that Independent works for something like Summon. I have the text as:

"Applied to a sustained effect, this modifier makes its duration independent of the user and based instead on the number of power points in the effect. The effect occurs normally and then fades at a rate of 1 power point of effectiveness per round until it is gone."

I get how this works for something like a wall of fire or a smoke bomb-- the effect is independent once used and gradually fades away. But if I applied it to summon, what happens? Does my summoned guy start to fade away (like in Back to the Future??)?

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby UnkindMirror » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:18 am

Yeah, Fades doesn't really work smoothly with Summon. You'd probably want to apply Total Fade as well, in that case.

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Re: Summon in an array

Postby FuzzyBoots » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:24 am

UnkindMirror wrote:Yeah, Fades doesn't really work smoothly with Summon. You'd probably want to apply Total Fade as well, in that case.

Alternately, you could try powering it down in 15 pp-ish increments as ranks of summon are lost, but I suspect that would be a pain.

I actually fiddled with the idea of a summoner with Independent on his Summon for a while. I took on the Flaws for having the summons come out as hostile toward him and set him up to rely on interaction skills to convince his summons to do what he needed done. ^_^ Ah yes, Summon Bigger Fish was a fun powerset.


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